The Future of Consent, Representation, and Gender in Culture with Michelle Meek

Heather Hester: 00:00:05

Welcome to Just Breathe. I am so happy you are here with me today. I am really excited to bring you today's guest just had such a fascinating conversation with her about a topic that we really haven't discussed yet on the podcast and one that we actually discussed several different topics that really relate to and apply to our kids and so many things that are going on today. So, I am thrilled, thrilled to bring Michele Meek to you. She is a writer, a filmmaker, a professor and an entrepreneur. She has most recently authored the book called consent culture and teen films, which was just published in April of this year. And is FYI, really, really fascinating read, so I highly recommend it. There will be links in the show notes for you to check this out. She's also published several other books including independent female filmmakers, and the mastermind failure club. She presented a TEDx talk, why we're confused about consent, rewriting our stories of seduction, and has written for MS magazine, script magazine entrepreneur, the good men Project salon.com, and others. She has also directed numerous award winning short films including imagine Cole 37, and red sneakers and she worked as an associate producer on the documentary feature salvage which premiered at the SXSW South by Southwest Film Festival. She has several creative projects in the works, including a short film, Bay Creek tennis camp, a feature screenplay Crouzon, and a documentary the impermanence of everything. She is a tenure track assistant professor and the Communication Studies Department at Bridgewater State University, where she teaches filmmaking, screenwriting, film studies, digital media, Gender Studies, and life design. I am really, really thrilled for you to listen in on this conversation, we just get into all of these topics, the consent culture topic, the representation in filming media, as well as talking in depth about her short film, which really really digs into gender and sports and insert inclusivity. So, without further ado, I bring you Dr. Michele Meek.

Heather Hester: 00:03:03

Welcome to Just Breathe: Parenting your LGBTQ Teen, the podcast, transforming the conversation around loving and raising an LGBTQ child. My name is Heather Hester and I am so grateful you are here. I want you to take a deep breath. And know that for the time we are together, you are in the safety of the just breathe nets. Whether today's show is an amazing guest or me sharing stories, resources, strategies or lessons I've learned along our journey. I want you to feel like we're just hanging out at a coffee shop having a cozy chat. Most of all, I want you to remember that wherever you are on this journey, right now, in this moment in time, you are not alone.

Heather Hester: 00:04:04

Michele, welcome to the show. I'm so happy that you are here. This has been a an interview that has been a long time coming for us. And I'm just delighted that we finally get to have this really important conversation about several really, really amazing topics. And I'm really excited to learn from you today. So let's just start off with letting everyone know a little bit about who you are and how you got into this really interesting work that you do. Sure. So

Michele Meek: 00:04:38

my name is Michele Meek and I am a PhD and a professor who studies consent, gender and sexuality and youth. I recently published the book consent culture and teen films adolescent sexuality in US movies. And I've also written numerous articles about gender, sexuality and youth at At ms magazine, salon.com, and other outlets, and I am working. I'm also a filmmaker. And I'm working on a short film right now called Bay Creek tennis camp. And it's about gender sports and inclusivity

Heather Hester: 00:05:14

for youth. Okay, that just tees up so much, right. Any questions already? This is so amazing. So what brought you into doing this type of work? Is this something that you were always interested in? Or did you kind of start in one place as a professor and a filmmaker, and just over time really start diving into these more in depth and timely issues?

Michele Meek: 00:05:44

I think I've always, you know, when you look back on your career, you sort of realize, oh, there is a thread. That makes sense, actually. And I've always been interested in sexuality. And years and years ago, I worked on a film, I made a short film about masturbation, women and masturbation. So I've always been interested in some of these topics. My interest in consent, really came through my studies when I was working on my PhD. And I finished that in 2016. And then pretty much soon after started working on the book that I've recently published. So I've been working in consent research for a decade at this point, which sounds like a long time, and it is. But you know, I've always kind of gravitated towards sexuality for whatever reason, and I think it's just such a rich terrain, for talking about aspects of human nature and relationships and culture and all of that.

Heather Hester: 00:06:52

Absolutely. Well, and I imagine a lot, a lot of what you've seen in your work is, and maybe even the point of your work is normalizing something that is so very human, and has been open a long time just a taboo subject, right. And so yeah, raise and the whole consent conversation is something that really has become such an important topic to discuss and to, to discuss with our kids certainly wasn't something that was discussed when I was a teenager. So I would love to talk about that and talk about your work within, you know, what this consent culture looks like and what we should be what what are the conversations we should be having with our kids? Yeah,

Michele Meek: 00:07:41

I mean, I think that what consent culture really is, is a culture where we prioritize consent in everyday interactions, particularly around sexuality or sex, but in everything right, but I think that there's a tendency to oversimplify consent in some of those discourses where we really lay out yes means yes, no means no, here's what consent means. It's, it's informed. It's really given its enthusiastic, etc. But the truth is that when we and we know this, because of our own personal experiences, often that sex in practice can be much more complicated than a simple yes means yes, or no means, you know, and having conversations with our children about how to handle those kinds of negotiations, how to better understand what our boundaries are going into something or how to navigate when we change our mind, or, you know, the kinds of real world situations that are going to come up when they start having those explorations. I think it's really important to, you know, talk about it before it comes up, ideally, so that they aren't in situations that they don't know how to navigate or haven't thought about at all.

Heather Hester: 00:09:06

Absolutely. Oh, my goodness. So many things just came to mind as you were saying that, and realizing that this is something that many may wait until, you know, early high school to have these conversations, which, in reality, which we should really be having these conversations a lot earlier. Right. So what can that look like? For instance? And I think to kind of a second piece of that is I think a lot of people are nervous to talk about it because it is thought to be this big conversation, right? Like one big conversation instead of having these smaller, like taking small opportunities to just address one little thing. And so I'm wondering what your recommendation would be or what you've kind of realized works for different age groups, like when you're talking to your 10 year old as opposed to your 13 year old, as opposed to your 18 year old. Right,

Michele Meek: 00:10:09

right. I mean, in general, I do really firmly believe that these conversations have to happen a lot younger than most people are comfortable having them. And that's because if we actually want to protect children against sexual childhood sexual abuse, then they need to know what that is. And they need to know that they have personal boundaries, and that, you know, bodily autonomy and all of that. And they need to know that you're a safe person to report to if something were to happen. So I think that it's really on us as parents to have those conversations, because frankly, the schools will and can't, because of the really, even in the most liberal of states, you know, I live in Rhode Island, they're still not having those conversations, really an elementary school, because there's always going to be some parents who are just deeply uncomfortable with that. And so the schools kind of stay out of it. And it's really on parents. I mean, one thing that I think can be done is, you know, at an early stage, you can offer some books, there are lots of great, I mean, I remember there's some new ones I haven't read yet, but I know that I had liked the books, it's all perfectly normal, which was a book for younger kids to kind of learn about sex and sexuality and gender. And I think that that was one that I thought was good. I remember, you know, just one of my kids wanted to take it to school in first grade. And I was like, you can't take that book to school. They're like, why not? It's like, oh, yeah, you don't? You don't know why not? Right. But, and then I, you know, I think that really, their fear sometimes is that by giving children some information that they're gonna, like, run out and do it. And that's really not, there's no evidence that shows that that's true. And it really is much more that being informed empowers young people to understand. And by being the one as a parent to start that conversation, you're really signaling that you are open to this conversation, you're open to questions, you're a safe person to have these kinds of conversations and questions with. And that is really the most important because if you don't bring it up until they're 15, like a it's way too late, they've already probably learned everything from the internet and their friends, and who knows if it's accurate. And B, they're not going to be comfortable talking to you at that point, because you haven't set a precedent of having those kinds of conversations.

Heather Hester: 00:12:49

Exactly, exactly. And when you start these conversations when they're very young, they're not about sex. Yeah, right there. I mean, all of the things that you named, which I just want to kind of highlight, because I think that is a very important point, that you're not talking about the act of sex to your six year old, you were talking about their body, right body positivity, protecting their space, knowing what it feels like when somebody is coming into their space, you know, knowing that that's okay to protect their space. So it's, you know, conversations like that, that are very much just, I think, more empowering and teaching kids how to set boundaries, which are so valuable,

Michele Meek: 00:13:43

I think that's one of the positive things that has come out of the consent culture really, is that there is more level of comfort of teaching younger people about consent at an earlier age, in that there's just more awareness, for example, you know, you don't have to force your kids to kiss their grandparents or their uncle or their whoever, right, you know, no, recognizing that maybe they just want to shake hands or fist bump or wave and, and recognizing their boundary in that moment, is a way of teaching them that what they want, or don't want matters. And then they can also be taught that, you know, they can't just run and hug a friend or, you know, touch someone else without making sure that that's something that has been approved by OR is welcomed by the other person. So, you know, those kinds of things can be taught at a very young age.

Heather Hester: 00:14:41

They can and I think just knowing that, right, this is one of those things that you don't know until you know, and you don't realize how to teach it, actually how to apply it to your own life and then how to teach it because this is something that is I would say adventure A guest that many from our generation did not grow up knowing how to do or how to teach. Absolutely.

Michele Meek: 00:15:08

I mean, I remember like living in a building in New York City, and there was a doorman who used to run and kiss me hug and kiss me, every time I walked by, and I used to try to go in other entrances to avoid this man. And, you know, my family all knew that this happened, and they just nobody thought that he deserved to talking to over this or that he should be put in his place or that it was just like a fact that we lived with it was just ease inappropriate. Yeah, but that's life. And I think we have a much different idea. Now, we would say, No, that's inappropriate. And don't do it again. Or I'm like, Are you need to be reported? No. Right. So that's, I feel like there have been some positive changes there for sure.

Heather Hester: 00:15:57

Absolutely. I mean, I think a ton of empowerment specifically for women, but for men as well. Yeah. So you know, and thinking about, especially our kids who are in the LGBTQ plus community, really talking about consent, boundaries, and empowerment, because that looks different. There. Absolutely. I

Michele Meek: 00:16:20

mean, in some ways, it's different. And in some ways, it's the same. I think one of the things that came up a lot in movies that I was watching for my book, consent culture, and teen films, for queer and questioning youth in particular, is that they're navigating situations where they're sometimes not sure of what their sexual desires and preferences are. And so they can be in a situation where they're quote, consenting, but they actually don't have the desire. So they might think, I want to be heterosexual. So I'm going to force myself into this encounter that I actually don't have any desire for. And that can be a problematic kind of situation, obviously. And again, the more we kind of lay the groundwork of being accepting, then they don't have to go through unpleasant encounters, where they're forcing themselves into some sexuality that is not, you know, in their, in their world. So.

Heather Hester: 00:17:20

Right. Oh, my goodness, yes, there's lots of it's woven through this very, very much. And I think, just an incredibly interesting conversation, to continue. And I do highly recommend that everyone reads this book, I think it is just phenomenal, thought provoking. So I appreciate all of the the work that you did to really research this and to write something that there really isn't anything out there like it. And so thank you, thank you so much. And it's an important conversation and, you know, again, gives everyone permission to have those conversations with their kids, which is really, really great. And kind of on top of that, if you're listening to this, and you're thinking, Well, I have teenagers, is it too late? No, it's not too late. It's just, it's never too late. It's just going to be a little bit more uncomfortable to start at this point, but it's never too late. And so and I would love to know your thoughts on that as well.

Michele Meek: 00:18:26

But yeah, I one of the things that I talk a lot about, and not so much in the book, but in general, I think the book becomes kind of a leaping pad or a launchpad for conversations that you could have with your teenagers about gender, sex, sexuality, consent, relationships, you know, friendships, and one of the things I think is under explored is the idea of watching media together. And then using that as a way of having conversations, I would say, especially with teenagers who are going to be more interested in maintaining some privacy around their life and relationship, relationships, I would say that you're watching media together, and having conversations about those characters. And the decisions that they're making. And the situations that they get themselves in is just a really great way of kind of making it abstract enough that it doesn't feel like I'm talking about you and the decisions you're making about your relationship, or sometimes just as awkward me and the decisions I've made about my life. But you know, it's about these characters. And it kind of was an epiphany for me at some point. When I was watching The Sandlot with one of my kids and I was so uncomfortable. They were really young. I think they were only seven years old or some maybe a little older, but not old and There was that scene where the lifeguard, the boy pretends to drown so that the lifeguard will give him out the mouth. And I was I wanted to leave, I literally whispered to be like, let's leave, you know. And, but, but they're enjoying the film. And of course, we're not leaving so. But I realized, Wait, this is an opportunity for me to have a conversation after the fact about why this made me so uncomfortable. Why would I think this boy did was wrong, and how the film itself is portraying something as good, that is not good. And it becomes not only a lesson in sort of consent, but also a lesson in media literacy, because you're really teaching them just because a movie shows it is okay, doesn't mean it's okay.

Heather Hester: 00:20:45

Right. Right. Oh, my goodness, yes. I appreciate you saying that. And I, it's a perfect transition into really talking about this idea of, you know, what we see in media, and the impact on us, and shaping our thoughts and shaping, you know, how we see the world, and how we make decisions, so many different things. But I think one thing that you and I were talking about before is having this represent representation. And so, you know, I think when I think about that kind of specifically, I'm talking about LGBTQ plus representation, but even, you know, to your point, this idea of really learning what consent means. Right, and, and why certain actions are right and wrong, and allowing that to be, you know, the way that you have discussions, which I love a wonderful suggestion.

Michele Meek: 00:21:41

Absolutely, I mean, I think it's, it's, it's such kind of low hanging fruit, right, it's right there, there's so much media, and the thing that I think is beautiful about it is you're not trying to find some brilliant example of the way to live your life. You can you can watch media that, you know, you can criticize together. And I think it can be an opportunity to kind of approach it with almost like an appreciative inquiry kind of mindset, where you're not coming in at like, I'm going to teach you all about what I think about this show. Right? But rather, what did you think about that character making that decision? Or, you know, what did you think about their relationship? Or how do you how do you think about how they felt about it? Because you know, or what did it make you feel when we watched that part? Or, because then you really can a learn something and then have a conversation that's really coming at it at the at sort of starting where you are with, with your your kid, or kids? And I think that can be the best approach as well.

Heather Hester: 00:22:46

Absolutely. Oh, my goodness. Yes. I mean, I just think of the different conversations we've had about, you know, whether it's movies, or even things, and this is going to sound so silly, but I think it's a great conversation starters, things you see on tick tock, right. I mean, that is, everybody's, for you pages, different things that pop up, and when we've had some really fascinating conversations about well, you know, what do you think about that? And why do you think that that might be true or not true, or, you know, whatever it might be. But kind of circling back a little bit to the idea of representation in media, whether it's, you know, film or books, or, you know, or tick tock? What do you see as the value of being able to see yourself in media.

Michele Meek: 00:23:50

I mean, there's so many people who have talked to and spoken specifically about this, how important it is to kind of see yourself represented in the media that you watch. It's just so affirming, and normalizing kind of, like you said, so, one of the things that I've found a little bit disappointing about some of the teen films recently that feature queer protagonists is that although it is coming from a pro queer point of view, for sure, a film like love Simon, for instance, solute is obviously this is meant to be an affirming story, but at the same time, like they make his coming out a really, really, really big deal. And you know, a big secret that he tries to change and keeps from himself and his family and his friends for years and years. And to me there's something you know, I have this this section in the book that's it's still queer to be queer. You know, like The idea is that when is it going to just be normal that someone is announcing their career? Why do they even have to announce it? And I think that I think we were a little bit behind. And one of the reasons I think that happens is because the people who are making media today are adults, right? Often kind of thinking about their own youth, which happened probably 20 or more years ago. And so, you know, maybe at least 1015. And so we almost are, like, decades behind often in terms of the media that we're seeing, and what actually young people experience today. And then, you know, with with trans teens or gender diverse teens, I would say it's, there's still not a lot in terms of the teen film genre. You know, there was the recent film anything's possible, which I'm glad they made, but really was one of the most saccharin movies I've ever seen, like, one of my kids, and I watched it, and we're like, we still want to like this movie. But wow. So over the top, like, it's okay. And you know, and then on the other hand, you have films like three generations, which really kind of present being a trans youth as just such a torture journey. And not to say that there's not difficulties. But again, there's just few films that are really representing it in in a way that feels very affirming, I would say one of the best films it although it's not really for younger audiences is boy meets girl, which is about a trans girl who's kind of exploring, you know, sexuality and relationships. And I really love that movie, but you know, it has nudity in it. And it's, I think it's probably rated R. So I, you know, that's the thing is that there's just not a lot of portraits like that for younger audiences yet.

Heather Hester: 00:27:04

Right. Right. There really aren't. And that is so interesting that you brought up love Simon, because I was thinking that in my head, I so wanted to love that. And I was like, There's nothing about this that is realistic. To the overall experience, I think, and I love your the point that you made to, which is, you know, what, we're working toward this not being a discussion. Yes, it just is. And so, that is such a lovely point. Alongside this, but yes, there is, there is some work that needs to be done for sure. And maybe we need we need our teenagers to start making some.

Michele Meek: 00:27:49

Right, exactly. I mean, I think it's one of the fundamental problems with you know, movies and television about youth. They don't make it, they're often not even in it. There's acted by adults. Yeah, it's, it's made by adults. And often it's even for adults. Like I said, you know, a lot of these shows, even though shows about tell youth today, sex education, heartbreak high, a lot of them are rated, you know, not all but many of them are rated TV mature. And so, you know, that ends up being a parent's decision on if you're comfortable watching more mature content with your your children, right? And how you feel about that. And that's a personal decision. Again, I don't think that watching something like that makes it so that you're gonna go out and do all of these things. It's you're more informed you have mixed thoughts about it. We're not blank slates to be written on, like, even use have opinions about things. They're watching it for sure.

Heather Hester: 00:28:49

Yeah, yes, they do they have last

Michele Meek: 00:28:55

week shouldn't underestimate them either.

Heather Hester: 00:28:58

Right? Well, and I think that is an excellent point that by them being exposed to, you know, any type of meeting, you know, queer media, whatever it is, film, book, whatever, or any of these topics for that matter. It is going it's a form of education, and being educated and being knowledgeable is a form of empowerment. And it's also you know, especially for older teens, this is like the time when they are supposed to start kind of differentiating from us right and by becoming independent human beings. So it's actually a really good thing when they don't agree with everything that we say because a that allows for great conversations, and be when we have these conversations, it lets them know that this is okay. It's okay for me to have my own ideas because I am my own human being Hmm. So there's a lot of, I think, value different valuable pieces in there, but not sure where I was going with that. But

Michele Meek: 00:30:08

yeah, I think it's true, though. I mean, you know, there's lots of times when I, whether it's with students or my own kids and watched films, and there's a lot of there can be different opinions about different aspects of it. And I think that's okay. Like, we're all kind of, at different levels of experience, right. And we're kind of responding to that while we watch. So that's informing our opinions about the kinds of things that we're seeing. And that doesn't mean that because I've had more experience, I've been experts, sometimes it gives me a bias that you know, that a younger person might not have. You never know.

Heather Hester: 00:30:46

Absolutely. Oh, my goodness, yes. I think it is often very interesting to, to see how are kids see things to, you know, or hear how they see see things because it is something that weren't, you know, we just naturally do have are more set in our opinions, or just because we're older, and we have more life experience, right? So it's when you hear things that you're like, huh, I never even thought of it that way. I've never looked at it that way. I think it's quite fascinating.

Michele Meek: 00:31:17

I think it's so important for us as adults to really think of ourselves as still wanting to learn from younger people. I, I know that it's such a hard reframe. But I've noticed this from teaching too, because as a teacher, I feel like the reason I like teaching is because I like learning. And, you know, there's lots of times when a student creates something, or does something or write something or says something that makes me think about something in a new way. And that's really my favorite experience to have. You know, I mean, my second favorite is to give them that experience where they kind of have that light bulb, but I like the light bulb too. And I think that ultimately, you know, it is going to be the younger people who push through the next wave. And I feel like, you know, for my generation growing up like it was felt very transgressive to be bisexual or homosexual. And now, I feel like it's more trans, that's less transgressive, aggressive for young people in their families, at least in the community, the sort of more liberal leaning community that I live in. But it's still more transgressive to be kind of gender diverse or trans. And so I think that every generation is pushing kind of a new boundary, so to speak. And, and as adults, we could really, it would be wise for us to not come off as like we know best, or this is how this is going to make your life so hard. Like we don't really know that, like, we don't know what the world is going to be like in 30 years. And when they're adults. And so we have to just, I mean, we don't have to, but we're better off if we maintain an openness and and think instead of instead of our expectations, expectations about the possibilities and know that we're not necessarily the ones designing this future that they are actually

Heather Hester: 00:33:21

absolutely asked, Oh, my goodness, and I think it's, we have this opportunity to be curious, right? And instead of being, you know, closed minded, or having that idea of like, well, I know everything already, and, and you're dumb, and you'll you'll learn, right? Having this like kind of shifting that to being like, Oh, this is interesting, like tell me, I want to know more, just because you're asking to learn more doesn't mean that that has to become part of the way you think it just broadens your perspective. And and your knowledge of what is out there what's going on in the world, which I just think then allows you to be a more compassionate human being. So there are many benefits.

Michele Meek: 00:34:12

I feel like I've realized, especially as a scholar, that you can become an expert in some very narrow fields. But really, everything is always changing. And there's more I don't know that I know. And I know that that's all I know. And so, you know, that's where that openness and that humility, I think comes from too, which is to say that I don't necessarily always know what's right. I am just doing the best that I can with the information that I have, hoping that I'm making the best choices, right as a parent, we're all doing that I hope, but being open to hearing what your kids are saying to you and and trying to see The things from their perspective, their world, I think is very important. And sometimes watching media with them, is a way of educating yourself to about what, you know, how they're seeing these kinds of things and what their opinions of them are.

Heather Hester: 00:35:16

Right? Oh, my goodness. Absolutely. So I'm wondering, I know you're doing a documentary or working on a documentary right now. And I was like, looking something like, this sounds so familiar to me. The impermanence of everything is that kind of is this part of the idea that of this documentary that you're creating? So that

Michele Meek: 00:35:35

documentary is a kind of a longer project. And it's, it's actually totally different than a lot of the other work that I've done, it's really focused on to some extent ephemeral art, which is art that doesn't last, it's really all art for and really nothing less. It's kind of, you know, art that we want to have persists. Like, if you think of ancient Rome, right? There's all this work being done to kind of prop up all the relics that are there, and yet they're crumbling, anyway, right? Or, you know, paint that these these ancient paintings that have been done, and then the paint is fading over time. And there's, you know, and just that, yeah, that that change is the only thing that we can be sure of, and impermanence is the only thing we can be

Heather Hester: 00:36:30

sure of. It is. It is that's one of Connors tattoos, that was cool. That was like, He's funny. Now this, you know, he got it probably four or five years ago. And he's like, why? I don't know if I like it. I'm like, it's just such a great statement. I mean, you know, it's lovely. So that's accurate. Yeah. No matter what stage of your life you're in. So I do love that. It's so interesting that you're doing that. So talking about films, I wanted to make sure we have enough time to talk about your film that you are you're making right now. You're in the process of making this film, correct.

Michele Meek: 00:37:11

Yeah, so it's in post production, which means that it's in its final stages of editing and music and credits and things like that. And I'm just in the stage now of submitting it to film festivals. So I'm hoping to have it start screening either this summer or in the

Heather Hester: 00:37:26

fall. That is so exciting. Okay, so let's talk about because there are three big topics. Yes. So you discuss gender, sports, and inclusivity. Let's talk about it because I want to learn we were talking about before I have, and I think many people who are listening have their like their feeling, you know, what we feel we know what we support. We just want more information. So yeah, I would love to learn from you.

Michele Meek: 00:38:01

Yeah. So I mean, this really came, you know, ideas come in different forms, for different reasons, right. And, for me, this idea first started as just a kid that was struggling with the constant choices having to be made regarding gender. And I've, I've seen this, you know, now that I've become kind of, it's like, once the, once the light bulb goes on, I can't go off, I guess, you know, now that I see it, I can't believe how often we're confronted with a decision about Pick, pick a side, pick a side, pick a side. And, you know, we do this from a very, very young age with with kids. And so the film is really a kids or family film. And it's about a coach who's kind of done it his way, you know, many years and always divides the kids by gender. And it's about a group of kids who kind of tries to make him see it a different way. I'll leave it at that not to give away too much. But, you know, my my thoughts on this are that having seen my own kids kind of struggle with constantly having to pick the boys or the girls teams. I just am not clear why we're still doing that. I know. It's why it's not I know, it's the way we've always done it, but it's not really the best way. And it's not only that, not the best way for kids who are gender diverse or trans, but it's not the best way for a lot of kids. And I'll give you an example. So one of my kids does hockey, ice hockey, and at age, you know 12 The league transitions into new 14 where you as a hockey allows them to check within boys hockey, which means that they can physically kind of bump up against you each other. And so what this does so cocky is sort of coed boys hockey is technically coed. But at this level, really all the girls lead almost all the girls sleep. And the reason is because they are not comfortable or they're smaller or whatever. But also the smaller boys leave, because they too, are not comfortable with the rules of checking. I've talked to boys who don't want to play boys lacrosse, because it's too violent. So, you know, I think we make the mistake of thinking, Oh, this is the most fair system. But it's not. It's just one that was readily convenient for us for many years, and now has become a tradition. But we can think of new possibilities if we open our minds.

Heather Hester: 00:40:57

Absolutely. I love hearing it from that angle. And because that makes so much sense. We all know the big argument that we all hear, right, which is it's not fair for boys to be in girls sports, they don't really care if girls are in boys for years about that. Time me about that. Yeah, he's really talking about that. But I think your to your point, and to this is an excellent point that's been glossed over, of course, that we really need to discuss more, which is making sports more accessible for all kids. Because I think that, you know, a lot of kids who stopped playing sports that they perhaps played when they were in, you know, elementary school or, you know, under 12. It's not that they don't like the sports, right? It just becomes physically prohibitive to play. So what do we do?

Michele Meek: 00:42:01

I mean, I think that we just have to imagine new scenario. So you know, we think about boxing, right? Boxing is based on weight. Right? And so, couldn't we think of some other classification that was based on like, size? I mean, I've noticed with with kids, you know, the girls actually start out being bigger than the boys, ironically. Right. And then that changes, like, in around 13, through 17, right. It's like, you know, the girls are sort of have peaked in height, and the boys continue to grow. But, you know, I think that what your, your point about that is really true. And I've often noticed how there's this fundamental problem where, you know, we say, oh, we need kids to be physical, more, we need them to be getting more exercise, we have this problem with weight in our country, and blah, blah, blah. But we make sports so competitive, and so prohibitive for anyone who wants to start out and try a sport that often like, you know, with ice hockey, if you haven't been playing for many years, like there's really no way in as a 12 year old, like, you're already too late. You're 12. Like, that doesn't even make any sense. And so I think that in general, there, we could think about different kinds of we already have many kinds of leaks already. Right. There's already leagues based on skill. So you know, why, why not rethink that? And then, the other thing is, and this is okay. Probably very controversial for some people, but I think we can think rethink rules. Why is there checking? You know, one of the things that I've really wondered is, have we actually contrived sports to benefit a male form? And we've done that because we live in a patriarchal society. And we have, since the beginning of time, perhaps, right? And so, words have not benefited people who are small and agile and nimble, right? they've benefited people who are big and strong and fast. Why? No reason? No good reason. And so, you know, again, like, okay, maybe youth sports, youth hockey, for instance, shouldn't have checking at all. Maybe that doesn't need to be a part of youth hockey, like, you know, or maybe that's only at the elite level, because they're the ones who are training to be in this, you know, this league where they're going to be going into the NHL. Bratan probably not. But you know, they're the only ones that have sunshine. Right. Right. So everyone else are they're really doing it for fun. So why can't we just have rules that kind of our more inclusive?

Heather Hester: 00:44:51

Right? Well, I think that's very reasonable. I think the other thing that kind of popped to mind when you said that, and I have no idea how realistic this actually is, but just thinking that a lot of these rules are created for the spectator. Right to make it more interesting to make it more, you know, whether it's more action, more violence more, right? I mean, checking doesn't necessarily benefit the players on the ice. No. But boy, does it entertain the people in the stance. Yeah. Right. And I think about to my youngest plays football, and he's super, super fast. So you know, he could be where he loves playing, running back. And but what is the runningback is the smaller one who's super fast, who often gets hit really, really hard, right? And it's all the fantastic things that you see on ESPN, whether it you know, that kid doesn't walk again, or they're, they're out for a really long time. Because it entertains people. It's kind of as you were saying that I'm like,

Michele Meek: 00:45:56

Yeah, I think we need to move on, like grow up as a society. And just, you know, we're not watching, you know, a bull fight anymore. Like, it was just like, Yeah, let's think about skill. And, and, you know, sports can be entertaining without this. And if you want to watch boxing, go watch boxing, like I just, I don't really, I don't have a lesson. You know, especially in youth like, Okay, I don't care, I'm going to tell you about professional sports, like I don't, you know, that's a different level, if you're at that level, fine. That's a whole other kind of Hanabi. I'm talking about kids, kids who want to play sports, kids who don't need to be gendered when they're playing sports, like it's just not necessary. There can be leagues that have different levels, based on size, or skill, or some combination of those. And they can play other teams that are their size and skill, and they can be coed, and then it just eliminates this obsession with constantly saying, pick a box, pick a box, I mean, you know, the thing is that I feel like as a society, the best way forward is for us to be more open with gender so that rather than someone feeling like they have to move from this box to that box, they can just be who they want to be and not have to constantly make a decision of which side do they need to pick. And in order to do that we need to pull out we need to pull back from all this gendering that we've been doing in our culture, you know, we really do and, and it's pervasive. I mean, I had my older kid went to math class the first day, and the teacher had created a seating chart based on what she perceived as the gender of everyone in the class. I mean, it was just like, this is math. You know, and so I think that there's just, you know, I want us to, to kind of think more consciously about what we're really accomplishing with that, and, and just, you know, be open to new ways of thinking about it.

Heather Hester: 00:48:07

Right, when I think that's the biggest thing right there, right, be open to new ways of thinking about it, and be open to the different possibilities. Just because it's always been done this way, is not a good reason. No, it's not. And, in fact,

Michele Meek: 00:48:26

it's a bad reason it is. So, like, you're telling your kid, it's because I said, so? It's like, Hey, that's not an answer.

Heather Hester: 00:48:37

Correct? Correct. I mean, oh, my goodness, let's it's time to move forward. And there's so much research, and there's more research coming every single day about gender being a spectrum. It's right. We don't need boxes.

Michele Meek: 00:48:55

And it's coming. I mean, I don't know if our culture is fully prepared for the numbers that are going to come out in the next few studies. But, you know, I see it, and it's there. In some communities, they've already found that one in 10, youth are identifying as gender diverse, and I have a feeling that those numbers are going to be even higher in a number of years. So it's, you know, just again, like this is where I really think that we need to take our cue from the youth and realize that if we don't want to be one of those people who's like on the wrong side of history, yet again, one of those generations who's like, putting their foot down and saying but this is how we've done it, you know, I don't personally want to do that. And sometimes people have been surprised because I am a, you know, fierce feminist advocate for women's rights and have been for many years and some people think, oh, that that means that you're going to be kind of anti trans but absolutely not like to me. I have always felt like as a feminist, the goal is to make gender a non issue that ultimately as a society, I want us to all be equal. And and that means, and if that means that we have to completely break down the walls of gender to do that, like I'm there with the hammer.

Heather Hester: 00:50:22

Exactly, exactly. Oh, I love that you said that. And I love that you brought that up? Because I know that is kind of an underlying question that people have as well and get a place where people get stuck. And again, you know, where humans love to have labels. And, you know, if you are this, then how can you possibly be this? Right? So I appreciate you saying that a lot in clarifying and clarifying that. For me, it always has made perfect sense that someone who is a feminist would also be pro, transgender, trans rights, LGBTQ, I mean, it doesn't really cross over to LGBTQ but specifically trans rights. And I've always been like, so perplexed by that, because I'm like, Well, why?

Michele Meek: 00:51:09

Yeah. Concerns are like that come out, are like, well, what is this going to do to women's sports, or girls sports, right? If we make it genderless are the boys just going to always be the best at everything, you know, will then the top league then be filled with boys and the bottom league be filled with girls, but girls sports, frankly, are already second fiddle to boys sports. So if you don't know that, then you're living in a fantasy world, right. And so I think that we're not really losing anything. And I think that if anything, we're gaining something, especially if we re consider some of the rules to be more inclusive, because then we actually could make some progress. You know, I was reading an article, I think it was in the New York Times about the history of men's sports and women's sports. And one of the claims that the author was making, I thought was so fascinating, which is that, you know, women for a long time weren't allowed to play sports. And so men sports built up this audience of fans and this fan base that women's sports was never able to build up, right. And, as a consequence, we're still living with that legacy, really, of discrimination. And I think that, you know, continuing to fight to make women's sports equal to men's sports feels like a losing battle. And I just think that at this point, especially for children, like we need to rethink, it's just not going to be okay, for one in 10 youth or more in a community to be faced with. Are you on the girls team or the boys team? Why? Like, it just doesn't make sense. It's too many kids. And it's too ridiculous. And we need to move on. Right? I pinion.

Heather Hester: 00:52:55

Right? Well, I mean, it's a great opportunity, right? It's, I see this as an incredible opportunity to really step out of this very traditional way of thinking and come up with similar solutions that work for everyone, and really do work for everyone in a way that, like you brought up a while ago, the whole idea of people all the time talking about how obesity is such a problem with our kids? Well, of course it is because they don't have the opportunity to move. Right, right, this is taken away from them at a very young age. And so you know, there are solutions, it's just perhaps going to take being a little uncomfortable. Right,

Michele Meek: 00:53:37

exactly.

Heather Hester: 00:53:39

So, so I just really, I cannot wait to see this film. I think that wow, what a great way of approaching three very, very important topics.

Michele Meek: 00:53:54

So I'm hoping it can be a conversation starter, you know, when we start with film festivals, but ultimately what I'd really like to do is screen it at schools and libraries and camps and community centers and places that families can come it's an eight minute film, you know, watch the film and then have a conversation and maybe have youth from the community and parents from the community part of that leading that conversation so that we can hear from from them and what they think about this in their community and how what are the issues and how can we resolve them because like I said, it doesn't only affects gender diverse youth, this this problem is sports is already affecting youth who are like boys who are too small, right? And so there's plenty of people who can gain from rethinking this system.

Heather Hester: 00:54:46

Absolutely. Absolutely. 100% Oh, my goodness. I think that you This is just what a great conversation starter and what a great way to really further a conversation that is You know, people have been having in places like this, but really, you know, invite more and more people into this conversation to see what ideas come when you kind of let go of the stuff. So, I am so appreciative of all the work that you've done. Oh, my goodness, it is so much alike. And I'm so happy that you've been here. Is there anything else that you would like to add or to let my audience know about how they can find you, of course, I'll have all of your links and information in the show notes. And I'll put it out on social media as well once this post, but anything on top of that, that you would like to offer the Florida I

Michele Meek: 00:55:43

mean, I say, come to my website at Michelemeek.com. Because that's really where you can find all my socials, you can learn about the film, you can subscribe for updates. And that's the best way to kind of keep in touch. One has been reached out to me too.

Heather Hester: 00:56:01

Good. That's perfect. Yes. Yes, your website is wonderful. It's very intuitive and easy to find everything. So yeah, always appreciate that it's all here in one place. So thank you so much for being here.

Michele Meek: 00:56:18

Thanks so much for having me.

Heather Hester: 00:56:20

Of course, of course.

Heather Hester: 00:56:22

Thank you for the conversation and I just feel so much, so much more well informed. That's good, I'm glad. Thanks so much for joining me today. If you enjoyed today's episode, I could be so grateful for a rating or review. Click on the link in the show notes or go to my website, chrysalismama.com To stay up to date on my latest resources as well as to learn how you can work with me. Please share this podcast with anyone who needs to know that they are not alone. And remember to just three until next time