Episode 106
Empowering Kids: The Importance of Consent Culture in Today's Media
Join us as we navigate the compelling topics of consent culture, representation in media, and gender inclusivity in sports with our remarkable guest, Michele Meek. As a writer, filmmaker, professor, and entrepreneur, Michele brings an enlightening perspective to our conversation. Listen in as we explore her work on consent culture, her interest in representation in film and media, and her upcoming short film on gender and inclusivity in sports. From her earliest interest in sexuality to her most recent book, Consent Culture and Teen Films, Michele’s insights are bound to challenge your thinking and start important conversations.
Engage in our thoughtful discussion on teaching kids about consent culture and bodily autonomy from a young age. We examine the best ways to initiate conversations about boundaries, body safety, and how to introduce age-appropriate books to children. As we navigate through this topic, we also touch on the positive effects of consent culture in teaching young individuals the importance of communication and respect for others.
Finally, we'll get into the topic of representation in youth media, focusing on the need for more diversity in gender representation, particularly in teen films. We contemplate the effects of traditional sports rules and regulations on youth athletes, with a focus on gender divisions. As we close, we look at the possibilities of gender-neutral sports leagues and the benefits of allowing children to express themselves without being confined to a box. Michele's extensive research on gender diversity and her conviction that society needs to be more open to these findings, makes this a conversation you won't want to miss.
About our Guest:
MICHELE MEEK, Ph.D. (she/her) is a writer, filmmaker, professor, and entrepreneur. She authored the book Consent Culture and Teen Films (published in 2023 with Indiana University Press), and she has published several other books including Independent Female Filmmakers (2019) and The Mastermind Failure Club (2020). She presented a TEDx talk “Why we’re confused about consent—rewriting our stories of seduction” and has written for Ms. Magazine, Script Magazine, Entrepreneur, The Good Men Project, Salon.com, among others.
Michele has also directed numerous award-winning short films, including Bay Creek Tennis Camp (2023), Imagine Kolle 37 (2017), and Red Sneakers (2008), and she worked as associate producer on the documentary feature Salvage (2019), which premiered at SXSW Film Festival. She has several creative projects in the works—including a feature screenplay Cruisin‘, an episodic screenplay Midlife Mayhem, and a documentary The Impermanence of Everything.
She is a tenure-track Assistant Professor in the Communication Studies department at Bridgewater State University, where she teaches filmmaking, screenwriting, film studies, digital media, gender studies, and life design.
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Email: hh@chrysalismama.com
Takeaways:
- Conversations about consent should start early to empower children and protect their boundaries.
- Media representation plays a crucial role in shaping young people's understanding of gender and sexuality.
- Normalizing discussions around consent can help children navigate complex social situations better.
- Sports should be inclusive, allowing all kids to play without the pressure of gender divisions.
- Parents can use media as a tool to facilitate discussions about consent and relationships.
- Being open to new ways of thinking is essential for addressing issues of gender diversity.
Links referenced in this episode:
Transcript
Welcome to Just Breathe.
Host:I am so happy you are here with me today.
Host:I am really excited to bring you today's guest just had such a fascinating conversation with her about a topic that we really haven't discussed yet on the podcast and one that we actually discussed several different topics that really relate to and apply to our kids and so many things that are going on today.
Host:So I am thrilled thrilled to bring Michelle Meek to you.
Host:She is a writer, a filmmaker, a professor and an entrepreneur.
Host:She has most recently authored the book called Consent Culture and Teen Films which was just published in April of this year and is FYI really really fascinating read so I highly recommend it.
Host:There will be links in the show notes for you to check this out.
Host:She's also published several other books including Independent Female Filmmakers and the Mastermind Failure Club.
Host:She presented a TEDx talk why we're Confused about Rewriting Our Stories of Seduction and has written for Ms.
Host:Magazine, Script Magazine Entrepreneur, the Good Men Project, Salon.com and others.
Host:She has also directed numerous award winning short films including Imagine Cole 37 and Red Sneakers and she worked as an associate producer on the documentary feature Salvage which premiered at the SXSW south by Southwest Film Festival.
Host:She has several creative projects in the works including a short film, Bay Creek Tennis Camp, a feature screenplay, Cruisin and a documentary, the Impermanence of Everything.
Host:She is a tenure track assistant professor in the Communication Studies department at Bridgewater State University where she teaches filmmaking, screenwriting, film studies, digital media, gender studies and life design.
Host:I am really, really thrilled for you to listen in on this conversation.
Host:We just get into all of these topics, the consent culture topic, the representation in film and media, as well as talking in depth about her short film which really, really digs into gender in sports and inclusivity.
Host:So without further ado, I bring you Dr.
Host:Michelle Me.
Heather Hester:Welcome to Just Breathe Parenting, your LGBTQ team, the podcast transforming the conversation around loving and raising an LGBTQ child.
Heather Hester:My name is Heather Hester and I am so grateful you are here.
Heather Hester:I want you to take a deep breath and know that for the time we are together, you are in the safety of the Just Breathe nest.
Heather Hester:Whether today's show is an amazing guest or me sharing stories, resources, strategies or lessons I've learned along our journey, I want you to feel like we're just hanging out at a coffee shop having a cozy chat.
Heather Hester:Most of all, I want you to remember that wherever you are on this journey right now, in this moment, moment in time, you are not alone.
Host:Michelle, welcome to the show.
Host:I'm so happy that you are here.
Host:This has been a.
Host:An interview that has been long time coming for us, and I'm just delighted that we finally get to have this really important conversation about several really, really amazing topics.
Host:And I'm really excited to learn from you today.
Host:So let's just start off with letting everyone know a little bit about who you are and how you got into this really interesting work that you do.
Michelle Meek:Sure.
Michelle Meek:So my name is Michelle Meek, and I am a PhD and a professor who studies consent, gender, and sexuality and youth.
Michelle Meek:I recently published the book Consent Culture and Teen Films, Adolescent Sexuality in US Movies.
Michelle Meek:And I've also written numerous articles about gender, sexuality, and youth@miss magazine, salon.com and other outlets.
Michelle Meek:And I am working.
Michelle Meek:I'm also a filmmaker and I'm working on a short film right now called Bay Creek Tennis Camp, and it's about gender, sports, and inclusivity for youth.
Host:Okay, that just tees up so much.
Michelle Meek:Right?
Host:So many questions already.
Host:This is so amazing.
Host:So what brought you into doing this type of work?
Host:Is this something that you were always interested in, or did you kind of start in one place as a professor and a filmmaker and just over time really start diving into these more in depth and timely issues?
Michelle Meek:I think I've always, you know, when you look back on your career, you sort of realize, oh, there is a thread that makes sense, actually.
Michelle Meek:And I've always been interested in sexuality, and years and years ago, I worked on a film, I made a short film about masturbation, women in masturbation.
Michelle Meek:So I've always been interested in some of these topics.
Michelle Meek: y PhD, and I finished that in: Michelle Meek:So I've been working in consent research for a decade at this point, which sounds like a long time, and it is a long time.
Michelle Meek:But, you know, I've always kind of gravitated towards sexuality for whatever reason, and I think it's just such a rich terrain for talking about aspects of human nature and relationships and culture and all of that.
Host:Absolutely.
Host:Well, and I imagine a lot, a lot of what you've seen in your work is, and maybe even the point of your work is normalizing something that is so very human and has been a long time.
Host:Just a taboo subject.
Host:Right.
Host:And so many different ways.
Host:And the whole consent conversation is something that really has become such important topic to discuss and to.
Host:To discuss with our kids.
Host:Certainly wasn't Something that was discussed when I was a teenager.
Host:So I would love to talk about that and talk about your work within, you know, what this consent culture looks like and what we should be.
Host:What, what are the conversations we should be having with our kids?
Michelle Meek:Yeah, I mean, I think that what consent culture really is, is a culture where we prioritize consent in everyday interactions, particularly around sexuality or sex, but in everything.
Michelle Meek:Right.
Michelle Meek:But I think that there's a tendency to oversimplify consent in some of those discourses where we really lay out yes means yes, no means no, here's what consent means, it's informed, it's freely given, it's enthusiastic, etc.
Michelle Meek:But the truth is that when we, and we know this because of our own personal experiences, often that sex in practice can be much more complicated than a simple yes means yes or no means no.
Michelle Meek:And having conversations with our children about how to handle those kinds of negotiations, how to better understand what our boundaries are going into something, or how to navigate when we change our mind, or, you know, the kinds of real world situations that are going to come up when they start having those explorations.
Michelle Meek:I think it's really important to, you know, talk about it before it comes up, ideally so that they aren't in situations that they don't know how to navigate or haven't thought about at all.
Host:Absolutely.
Host:Oh my goodness.
Host:So many things just came to mind as you were saying that and realizing that this is something that many may wait until, you know, early high school to have these conversations, which in reality we should really be having these conversations a lot earlier.
Host:Right.
Host:So what can that look like, for instance?
Host:And I think too kind of the second piece of that is I think a lot of people are nervous to talk about it because it is thought to be this big conversation.
Host:Right.
Host:Like one big conversation, instead of having these smaller, like taking the small opportunities to just address one little thing.
Host:And so I'm wondering, you know, what your recommendation would be or what you've kind of realized works for different age groups.
Host:Like when you're talking to your 10 year old as opposed to your 13 year old, as opposed to your 18 year old.
Michelle Meek:Right, right.
Michelle Meek:I mean, in general, I do really firmly believe that these conversations have to happen a lot younger than most people are comfortable having them.
Michelle Meek:And that's because if we actually want to protect children against sexual, childhood, sexual abuse, then they need to know what that is.
Michelle Meek:And they need to know that they have personal boundaries and, you know, bodily autonomy and all of that.
Michelle Meek:And they need to know that you're a safe person to report to if something were to happen.
Michelle Meek:So I think that it's really on us as parents to have those conversations because frankly, the schools won't and can't because of the.
Michelle Meek:Really, even in the most liberal of states, you know, I live in Rhode island, they're still not having those conversations really in elementary school because there's always going to be some parents who are just deeply uncomfortable with that.
Michelle Meek:And so the schools kind of stay out of it.
Michelle Meek:And it's really on parents.
Michelle Meek:I mean, one thing that I think can be done is, you know, at an early stage you can offer some books.
Michelle Meek:There are lots of.
Michelle Meek:I mean, I remember there's some new ones I haven't read yet, but I know that I had liked the books It's All Perfectly Normal, which was a book for younger kids to kind of learn about sex and sexuality and gender.
Michelle Meek:And I think that that was one that I thought was good.
Michelle Meek:I remember, you know, just one of my kids wanted to take it to school in first grade and I was like, you can't take that book to school.
Michelle Meek:They're like, why not?
Michelle Meek:It's like, oh, yeah, you don't, you don't know why not.
Host:Right.
Host:But.
Michelle Meek:And then I think that really their fear sometimes is that by giving children some information that they're going to like run out and do it.
Michelle Meek:And that's really not.
Michelle Meek:There's no evidence that shows that that's true.
Michelle Meek:And it really is much more that being informed empowers young people to understand.
Michelle Meek:And by being the one as a parent to start that conversation, you're really signaling that you are into this conversation.
Michelle Meek:You're open to questions.
Michelle Meek:You're a safe person to have these kinds of conversations and questions with.
Michelle Meek:And that is really the most important because if you don't bring it up until they're 15, like, a, it's way too late.
Michelle Meek:They've already probably learned everything from the Internet and their friends and who knows if it's accurate.
Michelle Meek:And B, they're not going to be comfortable talking to you at that point because you haven't set a precedent of having those kinds of conversations.
Host:Exactly, exactly.
Host:And when you start these conversations when they're very young, they're not about sex.
Host:Yeah, right.
Host:They're about, I mean, all of the things that you named, which I just want to kind of highlight because I think that is a very important point, that you're not talking about the act of sex to your six year old.
Host:You are talking about their body.
Host:Right.
Host:Body positivity.
Host:Protecting their space, knowing what it feels like when somebody is coming into their space, you know, knowing that that's okay to protect their space.
Host:So it's, you know, conversations like that that are very much just, I think, more empowering and teaching kids how to set boundaries, which.
Host:So valuable.
Michelle Meek:I think that's one of the positive things that has come out of the consent culture, really, is that there is more level of comfort of teaching younger people about consent at an earlier age in that there's just more awareness.
Michelle Meek:For example, you know, you don't have to force your kids to kiss their grandparents or their uncle or their whoever.
Michelle Meek:Right.
Michelle Meek:You know, recognizing that maybe they just want to shake hands or fist bump or wave, and recognizing their boundary in that moment is a way of teaching them that what they want or don't want matters.
Michelle Meek:And then they can also be taught that, you know, they can't just run and hug a friend or, you know, touch someone else without making sure that that's something that has been approved by or is welcomed by the other person.
Michelle Meek:So, you know, those kinds of things can be taught at a very young age.
Host:They can.
Host:And I think just knowing that.
Host:Right.
Host:This is one of those things that you don't know until you know and you don't realize how to teach it, actually, how to apply it to your own life and then how to teach it.
Host:Because this is something that is.
Host:I would say, I venture a guess that many from our generation did not grow up knowing how to do or how to teach.
Host:Absolutely.
Michelle Meek:I mean, I remember, like, living in a building in New York City, and there was a doorman who used to run and kiss me, hug and kiss me every time I walked by.
Michelle Meek:And I used to try to go in other entrances to avoid this man.
Michelle Meek:And, you know, my family all knew that this happened, and they just.
Michelle Meek:Nobody thought that he deserved a talking to over this or that he should be put in his place or that it was just, like a fact that we lived with.
Michelle Meek:It was just.
Michelle Meek:He's inappropriate.
Michelle Meek:Yeah.
Michelle Meek:But that's life.
Michelle Meek:And I think we have a much different idea now.
Michelle Meek:We would say, no, that's inappropriate, and don't do it again.
Michelle Meek:Or I'm like.
Michelle Meek:Or you need to be reported, you know?
Host:Right.
Michelle Meek:So that's.
Michelle Meek:I feel like there have been some positive changes there, for sure.
Host:Absolutely.
Host:I mean, I think a ton of empowerment, specifically for women, but for men as well.
Host:So, you know, and thinking about, especially our kids who are in the LGBTQ+ community, really talking about consent, boundaries, and empowerment, because that Looks different there.
Michelle Meek:Absolutely.
Michelle Meek:I mean, in some ways it's different and in some ways it's the same.
Michelle Meek:I think one of the things that came up a lot in the movies that I was watching for my book, Consent Culture and teen films who are queer and questioning youth in particular, is that they're navigating situations where they're sometimes not sure of what their sexual desires and preferences are.
Michelle Meek:And so they can be in a situation where they're, quote, consenting, but they actually don't have the desire.
Michelle Meek:So they might think, I want to be heterosexual.
Michelle Meek:So I'm going to force myself into this encounter that I actually don't have any desire for.
Michelle Meek:And that can be a problematic kind of situation, obviously.
Michelle Meek:And again, the more we kind of lay the groundwork of being accepting, then they don't have to go through unpleasant encounters where they're forcing themselves into some sexuality that is not, you know, in their, in their world.
Michelle Meek:So.
Host:Right.
Host:Oh my goodness, yes.
Host:There's lots of.
Host:It's woven through this very, very much.
Host:And I think just an incredibly interesting conversation to continue.
Host:And I do highly recommend that everyone reads this book.
Host:I think it is just phenomenal, thought provoking.
Host:So I appreciate all of the work that you did to really research this and to write something that there really isn't anything out there like it.
Host:And so thank you.
Host:Thank you so much.
Host:And it's an important conversation and, you know, again, gives everyone permission to have those conversations with their kids, which is really, really great.
Host:And kind of on top of that, if you're listening to this and you're thinking, well, I have teenagers, is it too late?
Host:No, it's not too late.
Host:It's just, it's never too late.
Host:It's just going to be a little bit more uncomfortable to start at this point.
Host:But it's never too late.
Host:And so.
Host:And I would love to know your thoughts on that as well.
Michelle Meek:But yeah, one of the things that I talk a lot about and not so much in the book, but in general, I think the book becomes kind of a leaping pad or a launch pad for conversations that you could have with your teenagers about gender, sex, sexuality, consent, relationships, you know, friendships.
Michelle Meek:And one of the things I think is under explored is the idea of watching media together and then using that as a way of having conversations.
Michelle Meek:I would say, especially with teenagers who are going to be more interested in maintaining some privacy around their life and relationship relationships, I would say that you're watching media together and having conversations about those characters and the decisions that they're Making and the situations that they get themselves in is just a really great way of kind of making it abstract enough that it doesn't feel like I'm talking about you and the decisions you're making about your relationship or sometimes just as awkward.
Michelle Meek:Me and the decisions I've made about my relationships.
Michelle Meek:Right.
Michelle Meek:But, you know, it's about these characters.
Michelle Meek:And it kind of was an epiphany for me at some point when I was watching the sandlot with one of my kids and I was so uncomfortable.
Michelle Meek:They were really young.
Michelle Meek:I think they were only 7 years old or something, maybe a little older, but not old.
Michelle Meek:And there was that scene where the lifeguard, the boy pretends to drown so that the lifeguard will give him mouth to mouth.
Michelle Meek:And I was.
Michelle Meek:I wanted to leave.
Michelle Meek:I literally whispered to be like, let's leave, you know, and.
Michelle Meek:But the.
Michelle Meek:But they're enjoying the film and of course we're not leaving.
Michelle Meek:So.
Michelle Meek:But I realized, wait, this is an opportunity for me to have a conversation after the fact about why this made me so uncomfortable, why would I think this Voyage did was wrong, and how the film itself is portraying something as good that is not good.
Michelle Meek:And it becomes not only a lesson in sort of consent, but also a lesson in media literacy, because you're really teaching them.
Michelle Meek:Just because a movie shows it is okay doesn't mean it's okay.
Host:Right?
Host:Right.
Host:Oh, my goodness, yes.
Host:I appreciate you saying that.
Host:And I.
Host:That's a perfect transition into really talking about this idea of, you know, what we see in media and the impact on us and shaping our thoughts and shaping, you know, how we see the world and how we make decisions, so many different things.
Host:But I think one thing that you and I were talking about before is having this represent representation.
Host:And so, you know, I think when I think about that, you know, kind of specifically, I'm talking about LGBTQ + representation.
Host:But even, you know, to.
Host:To your point, this idea of really learning what consent means.
Host:Right.
Host:And why certain actions are right and wrong and allowing that to be the way that you have discussions, which I loved the wonderful suggestion.
Michelle Meek:Absolutely.
Michelle Meek:I mean, I think it's such kind of low hanging fruit, right?
Michelle Meek:It's right there.
Michelle Meek:There's so much media.
Michelle Meek:And the thing that I think is beautiful about it is you're not trying to find some brilliant example of the way to live your life.
Michelle Meek:You can watch media that, you know, you can criticize together.
Michelle Meek:And I think it can be an opportunity to kind of approach it with almost like an appreciative inquiry, kind of mindset where you're not coming in it.
Michelle Meek:Like I'm going to teach you all about what I think about this show.
Michelle Meek:Right.
Michelle Meek:But rather what did you think about that character making that decision?
Michelle Meek:Or you know, what did you think about their relationship?
Michelle Meek:Or how do you think about how they felt about it?
Michelle Meek:Because, you know, or what did it make you feel when we watched that part?
Michelle Meek:Or because then you really can a learn something and then have a conversation that's really coming at it at the sort of starting where you are with your kid or kids.
Michelle Meek:And I think that can be a best approach as well.
Host:Absolutely.
Host:Oh my goodness, yes.
Host:I mean I just think of the different conversations we've had about, you know, whether it's movies or you know, even things.
Host:And this is going to sound so silly, but I think it's a great conversation starter is things you see on Tick Tock.
Host:Right?
Host:I mean that is everybody's for you page is different.
Host:And so things that pop up it.
Host:I mean we've had some really fascinating conversations about well, you know, what do you think about that and why do you think that that might be true or not true or you know, whatever it might be.
Host:But kind of circling back a little bit to the idea of representation in media, whether it's, you know, film or books or you know, or TikTok.
Host:What do you see as the value of being able to see yourself in media?
Michelle Meek:I mean there's so many people who have spoken specifically about this how important it is to kind of see yourself represented in the media that you watch.
Michelle Meek:It's just so affirming and normalizing kind of like you said.
Michelle Meek:So one of the things that I've found a little bit disappointing about some of the teen films recently that feature queer protagonists is that although it is coming from a pro queer point of view, for sure, a film like Love Simon, for instance, I'll use.
Michelle Meek:Obviously this is meant to be an affirming story, but at the same time like they make his coming out a really, really, really big deal and you know, a big secret that he tries to change and keeps from himself and his family and his friends for years and years.
Michelle Meek:And to me there's something, you know, I have this section in the book that it's still queer to be queer.
Michelle Meek:You know, like the idea is that when is it going to just be normal that someone is announcing that their queer?
Michelle Meek:Why do they even have to announce it?
Michelle Meek:And I think so.
Michelle Meek:I think we were a little bit behind and one of the reasons I think that happens is because the people who are making media today are adults.
Michelle Meek:Right.
Michelle Meek:Often kind of thinking about their own youth, which happened probably 20 or more years ago.
Michelle Meek:And so, you know, maybe at least 10, 15.
Michelle Meek:And so we almost are like decades behind, often in terms of the media that we're seeing and what actually young people experience.
Michelle Meek:Experience today.
Michelle Meek:And then, you know, with.
Michelle Meek:With trans teens or gender diverse teens, I would say it's.
Michelle Meek:There's still not a lot in terms of the teen film genre.
Michelle Meek:You know, there was the recent film Anything's Possible, which I'm glad they made, but really was one of the most saccharine movies I've ever seen.
Michelle Meek:Like, one of my kids and I watched it and we're like, we still want to like this movie, but wow, right?
Michelle Meek:So over the top, like, so great.
Michelle Meek:And you know, and then on the other hand, you have films like Three Generations, which really kind of present being a trans youth as just such a tortured journey.
Michelle Meek:And not to say that there's not difficulties, but again, there's just few films that are really representing it in.
Michelle Meek:In a way that feels very affirming.
Michelle Meek:I would say one of the best films, although it's not really for younger audiences, is Boy Meets Girl, which is about a trans girl who's kind of exploring, you know, sexuality and relationships.
Michelle Meek:And I really love that movie.
Michelle Meek:But, you know, it's.
Michelle Meek:It has nudity in it and it's.
Michelle Meek:I think it's probably rated R.
Michelle Meek:So I, you know, that's the thing is that there's just not a lot of portraits like that for younger audiences yet.
Host:Right, right.
Host:There really aren't.
Host:And that is so interesting that you brought up love, Simon, because I was thinking that in my head, I so wanted to love that.
Host:And I was like, there is nothing about this that is realistic.
Host:Yeah, I think to the overall experience, I think.
Host:And I love your.
Host:The point that you made too, which is, you know, what are.
Host:We're working toward this not being a discussion.
Michelle Meek:Right, right.
Host:Just is.
Host:It just is.
Host:And so, yeah, that is such a lovely point alongside this.
Host:But yes, there is, there is some work that needs to be done for sure.
Host:And maybe we need, we need our teenagers to start making some.
Michelle Meek:Right, exactly.
Michelle Meek:I mean, I think it's one of the fundamental problems with, you know, movies and television about youth.
Michelle Meek:They don't make it.
Michelle Meek:They're often not even in it.
Michelle Meek:It's acted by adults.
Michelle Meek:Yes, it's made by adults and often it's even for adults.
Michelle Meek:Like I said, you know, a lot of these shows, even the shows about youth today, education, Heartbreak High, a lot of them are rated, you know, not all, but many of them are rated TV mature.
Michelle Meek:And so, you know, that ends up being a parent's decision on if you're comfortable watching more mature content with your, your children.
Michelle Meek:Right.
Michelle Meek:And how you feel about that.
Michelle Meek:And that's a personal decision.
Michelle Meek:Again, I don't think that watching something like that makes it so that you're going to go out and do all of these things.
Michelle Meek:It's.
Michelle Meek:You're more informed, you have mixed thoughts about it.
Michelle Meek:We're not blame slates to be written on.
Michelle Meek:Like, even youth have opinions about things, right?
Michelle Meek:They're watching it for sure.
Host:Oh, yeah.
Host:Yes, they do.
Host:They have lots.
Michelle Meek:Exactly.
Michelle Meek:So we shouldn't underestimate them either.
Host:Right.
Host:Well, and I think that is an excellent point that by them being exposed to, you know, any type of queer media, whatever it is, film, book, whatever, or any of these topics for that matter, it is going.
Host:It's a form of education and being educated and being knowledgeable is a form of empowerment.
Host:And it's also, especially for our older teens, this is the time when they are supposed to start differentiating from us and becoming independent human beings.
Host:So it's actually a really good thing when they don't agree with everything that we say because A, that allows for great conversations and, and B, when we have these conversations, it lets them know that this is okay.
Host:It's okay for me to have my own ideas because I am my own human being.
Host:So there's a lot of, I think, value different valuable pieces in there.
Host:But I'm not sure where I was going with that.
Michelle Meek:But anyway, yeah, I think it's true though.
Michelle Meek:I mean, there's lots of times when I, whether it's with students or my own kids and watched films and there's a lot of.
Michelle Meek:There can be different opinions about different aspects of it and I think that's okay.
Michelle Meek:Like, we're all kind of at different levels of experience.
Michelle Meek:Right.
Michelle Meek:And we're kind of responding to that while we watch.
Michelle Meek:So that's informing our opinions about the kinds of things that we're seeing.
Michelle Meek:And that doesn't mean that because I've had more experience, I'm an expert, sometimes it gives me a bias that, you know, that a younger person might not have.
Michelle Meek:You never know.
Host:Absolutely.
Host:Oh, my goodness.
Host:Yes.
Host:I think it is often very interesting to see how our kids see things to, you know, or hear how they see things, because it is something that we're, you know, we just naturally do have are more set in our opinions or just because we're older and we have more life experience.
Host:Right.
Host:So it's when you hear things that you're like, oh, I never even thought of it that way, or I've never looked at it that way.
Host:I think it's quite fascinating.
Michelle Meek:I think it's so important for us as adults to really think of ourselves as still wanting to learn from younger people.
Michelle Meek:I, I know that it's such a hard reframe, but I've noticed this from teaching too, because as a teacher I feel like the reason I like teaching is because I like learning.
Michelle Meek:And you know, there's lots of times when a student creates something or does something or write something or says something that makes me think about something in a new way.
Michelle Meek:And that's really my favorite experience to have.
Michelle Meek:You know, I mean, my second favorite is to give them that experience where they kind of have that light bulb.
Michelle Meek:But I like the light bulb too.
Michelle Meek:Right?
Michelle Meek:Yes.
Michelle Meek:And I think that ultimately, you know, it is going to be the younger people who push through the next wave.
Michelle Meek:And I feel like, you know, for my generation growing up, like it was felt very transgressive to be bisexual or homosexual.
Michelle Meek:And now I feel like it's more trans, that's less transgressive, aggressive for young people and their families, at least in the community, the sort of more liberal leaning community that I live in.
Michelle Meek:But it's still more transgressive to be kind of gender diverse or trans.
Michelle Meek:And so I think that every generation is pushing kind of a new boundary, so to speak.
Michelle Meek:And, and as adults we could really, it would be wise for us to not come off as like, we know best or this is how this is going to make your life so hard.
Michelle Meek:Like, we don't really know that.
Michelle Meek:Like, we don't know what the world is going to be like in 30 years.
Michelle Meek:And when they're adults.
Michelle Meek:And so, you know, we have to just, I mean, we don't have to, but we're, we're better off if we maintain an openness and, and think instead of, instead of our expectations, expectations about the possibilities and, and know that we're not necessarily the ones designing this future that they are actually.
Host:Absolutely, absolutely.
Host:Oh my goodness.
Host:And I think it's, we have this opportunity to be curious.
Michelle Meek:Right.
Host:And instead of being, you know, close minded or having that idea of like, well, I know everything already and, and you're dumb and you'll, you'll learn.
Host:Right.
Host:Having this like kind of shifting that to being like, well, this Is interesting.
Host:Like, tell me.
Host:I want to know more.
Host:Just because you're asking to learn more doesn't mean that that has to become part of the way you think.
Host:It just broadens your perspective and your knowledge of what is out there, what's going on in the world, which I just think then allows you to be a more compassionate human being.
Host:So there are many benefits.
Michelle Meek:Absolutely.
Michelle Meek:And one of the things I feel like I've realized, especially as a scholar, that you can become an expert in some very narrow field, but really, everything is always changing.
Michelle Meek:And there's more I don't know than I know.
Michelle Meek:And I know that.
Michelle Meek:That's all I know.
Michelle Meek:And so that's where that openness and that humility, I think, comes from, too, which is to say that I don't necessarily always know what's right.
Michelle Meek:I am just doing the best that I can with the information that I have, hoping that I'm making the best choices.
Michelle Meek:Right.
Michelle Meek:As a parent, we're all doing that, I hope.
Michelle Meek:But being open to hearing what your kids are saying to you and trying to see things from their perspective, their world, I think is very important.
Michelle Meek:And sometimes watching media with them is a way of educating yourself, too, about how they're seeing these kinds of things and what their opinions of them are, right?
Host:Oh, my goodness.
Host:Absolutely.
Host:So I'm wondering.
Host:I know you're doing a documentary or working on a documentary right now, and I was, like, looking.
Host:So I'm like, this sounds so familiar to me.
Host:The impermanence of everything.
Host:Is that kind of.
Host:Is this part of the idea that of this documentary that you're creating?
Michelle Meek:So that documentary is a.
Michelle Meek:Is a kind of a longer project, and it's.
Michelle Meek:It's actually totally different than a lot of the other work that I've done.
Michelle Meek:It's really focused on, to some extent, ephemeral art, which is art that doesn't last, which is really all art, and really nothing lasts.
Michelle Meek:It's kind of the premise.
Michelle Meek:So, you know, art that we want to have persists.
Michelle Meek:Like, if you think of ancient Rome.
Michelle Meek:Right.
Michelle Meek:There's all this work being done to kind of prop up all the relics that are there, and yet they're crumbling anyway.
Michelle Meek:Right.
Michelle Meek:Or, you know, paint that.
Michelle Meek:These.
Michelle Meek:These ancient paintings that have been done, and then the paint is fading over time, and there's, you know, and just that.
Michelle Meek:Yeah, that.
Michelle Meek:That change is the only thing that we can be sure of.
Michelle Meek:And impermanence is the only thing we can be sure of.
Host:It is.
Host:It is.
Host:That's one of Connor's tattoos.
Michelle Meek:That was cool.
Host:And I was like, he's funny now.
Host:This, you know, he got it probably four or five years ago.
Host:And he's like, why?
Host:I don't know if I like it.
Host:I'm like, it's just such a great statement.
Host:I mean, you know, it's.
Host:It's lovely.
Host:So it's accurate.
Michelle Meek:Yeah.
Host:No matter what stage of your life you're in.
Host:So I do love that.
Host:And that's so interesting that you're doing that.
Host:So talking about films, I want to make sure we have enough time to talk about your film that you are.
Host:You're making right now.
Host:You're in the process of making this film, correct?
Michelle Meek:Yeah.
Michelle Meek:So it's in post production, which means that it's in its final stages of editing and music and credits and things like that.
Michelle Meek:And I'm just in the stage now of submitting it to film festivals, so I'm hoping to have it start screening either this summer or in the fall.
Host:That is so exciting.
Host:Okay, so let's talk about.
Host:Because there are three big topics.
Michelle Meek:Yes.
Host:So you discuss gender, sports, and inclusivity.
Host:Let's talk about it because I want to learn.
Host:We were talking about before.
Host:I have.
Host:And I think many people who are listening have their, like, their feelings, you know, what we feel, we know what we support.
Host:We just want more information.
Host:So, yeah, I would love to learn from you.
Michelle Meek:Yeah.
Michelle Meek:So, I mean, this really came.
Michelle Meek:You know, ideas come in different forms for different reasons.
Michelle Meek:Right.
Michelle Meek:And for me, this idea first started as just a kid that was struggling with the constant choices having to be made regarding gender.
Michelle Meek:And I've.
Michelle Meek:I've seen this, you know, now that I've become kind of.
Michelle Meek:It's like once the.
Michelle Meek:Once the light bulb goes on, it can't go off, I guess.
Michelle Meek:You know, now that I see it, I can't believe how often we're confronted with a decision about pick, pick a side, pick a side, pick a side.
Michelle Meek:And, you know, we do this from a very, very young age with kids.
Michelle Meek:And so the film is really a kids or family film.
Michelle Meek:And it's about a coach who's kind of done it his way, you know, many years and always divides the kids by gender.
Michelle Meek:And it's about a group of kids who kind of tries to make him see it a different way.
Michelle Meek:I'll leave it at that.
Michelle Meek:Not to give away too much.
Michelle Meek:Okay.
Michelle Meek:But, you know, my.
Michelle Meek:My thoughts on this are that having seen my own kids kind of struggle with constantly having to pick the boys or the girls teams.
Michelle Meek:I just Am not clear why we're still doing that.
Michelle Meek:I know it's why it's not.
Michelle Meek:I know it's the way we've always done it, but it's not really the best way.
Michelle Meek:And it's not only that, not the best way for kids who are gender diverse or trans, but it's not the best way for a lot of kids.
Michelle Meek:And I'll give you an example.
Michelle Meek:So one of my kids does hockey, ice hockey.
Michelle Meek:And at age, you know, 12, the league transitions into U14, where USA Hockey allows them to check in boys hockey, which means that they can physically kind of bump up against each other.
Michelle Meek:And so what this does.
Michelle Meek:So hockey is sort of co ed.
Michelle Meek:Boys hockey is technically co ed.
Michelle Meek:But at this level, really all the girls leave.
Michelle Meek:Almost all the girls leave.
Michelle Meek:And the reason is because they are not comfortable or they're smaller or whatever, but also the smaller boys leave because they too are not comfortable with the rules of checking.
Michelle Meek:I've talked to boys who don't want to play boys lacrosse because it's too violent.
Michelle Meek:So, you know, I think we make the mistake of thinking, oh, this is the most fair system, but it's not.
Michelle Meek:It's just one that was readily convenient for us for many years and now has become a tradition.
Michelle Meek:But we can think of new possibilities if we open our minds.
Host:Absolutely.
Host:I love hearing it from that angle and because that makes so much sense, you know, we all know the big argument that we all hear, right?
Host:Which is it's not fair for boys to be in girls sports.
Host:They don't really care if girls are in boys sports.
Michelle Meek:Right.
Michelle Meek:Nobody really cares about that.
Michelle Meek:He's talking about that.
Host:Yeah, nobody's really talking about that.
Host:But I think, you know, to your point and to.
Host:This is an excellent point that's being glossed over, of course, that we really need to discuss more, which is making sports more accessible for all kids.
Host:Because I think that a lot of kids who stop playing sports that they perhaps played when they were in elementary school or under 12, it's not that they don't like these sports, it just becomes physically prohibitive to play.
Host:So what do we do?
Michelle Meek:I mean, I think that we just have to imagine new scenarios.
Michelle Meek:So we think about boxes.
Michelle Meek:Boxing.
Michelle Meek:Right.
Michelle Meek:Boxing is based on weight.
Michelle Meek:Right.
Michelle Meek:And so couldn't we think of some other classification that was based on like size?
Michelle Meek:I mean, I've noticed with, with kids, you know, the girls actually start out being bigger than the boys, ironically.
Michelle Meek:Right.
Michelle Meek:And, and then that changes like in.
Michelle Meek:At around 13 through 17.
Michelle Meek:Right.
Michelle Meek:It's like, oh, you know, the girls are sort of have peaked in height and the boys continue to grow.
Michelle Meek:But, you know, I think that what your point about that is really true.
Michelle Meek:And I've often noticed how there's this fundamental problem where, you know, we say, oh, we need kids to be physical more, we need them to be getting more exercise, we have this problem with weight in our country and blah, blah, blah.
Michelle Meek:But we make sports so competitive and so prohibitive for anyone who wants to start out and try a sport that often, like, you know, with ice hockey, if you haven't been playing for many years, like, there's really no way in as a 12 year old, like you're already too late.
Host:Yeah, you're 12.
Michelle Meek:Like that doesn't even make any sense.
Michelle Meek:And so I think that in general there we could think about different kind.
Michelle Meek:And we already have many kinds of leagues already, right.
Michelle Meek:There's already leagues based on skill.
Michelle Meek:So, you know, why not rethink that?
Michelle Meek:And then the other thing is, and this is, okay, probably very controversial for some people, but I think we can think, rethink rules.
Michelle Meek:Why is there checking?
Michelle Meek:You know, one of the things that I've really wondered is have we actually contrived sports to benefit a male form?
Michelle Meek:And we've done that because we live in a patriarchal society and we have since the beginning of time, perhaps.
Michelle Meek:Right.
Michelle Meek:And so sports have not benefited people who are small and agile and nimble.
Michelle Meek:Right.
Michelle Meek:They've benefited people who are big and strong and fast.
Michelle Meek:Why?
Michelle Meek:No reason.
Michelle Meek:No good reason.
Michelle Meek:And so, you know, again, like, okay, maybe youth sports, youth hockey, for instance, shouldn't have checking at all.
Michelle Meek:Maybe that doesn't need to be a part of youth hockey.
Michelle Meek:Like, you know, or maybe that's only at the elite level because they're the ones who are training to be in this, you know, this league where they're going to be going into the NHL.
Michelle Meek:Probably not.
Michelle Meek:But, you know, they're the only ones that have shine.
Michelle Meek:Right?
Host:Right.
Michelle Meek:So everyone else, they're really doing it for fun.
Michelle Meek:So why can't we just have rules that kind of are more inclusive?
Host:Right.
Host:Well, I think that's very reasonable.
Host:I think the other thing that kind of popped to mind when you said that, and I have no idea how realistic this actually is, but just thinking that a lot of these rules are created for the spectator, right.
Host:To make it more interesting, to make it more, you know, whether it's more action, more violence, more.
Host:Right.
Host:I mean, checking doesn't necessarily benefit the players on the ice.
Host:No, but boy, does it entertain the people in the stands.
Michelle Meek:Yeah, right?
Host:And I think about to.
Host:My youngest plays football and he's super, super fast.
Host:So, you know, he could be.
Host:He loves playing running back.
Host:And.
Host:But what is the running back is the smaller one who's super fast, who often gets hit really, really hard.
Host:Right.
Host:And it's all the fantastic things that you see on ESPN where, you know, that kid doesn't walk again, they're out for a really long time.
Host:Because that entertains people.
Host:Just kind of, as you were saying that, I'm like, yeah, I think we.
Michelle Meek:Need to move on, people.
Michelle Meek:We need to move on, like, grow up as a society and just, you know, we're not watching, you know, a bull fight anymore.
Michelle Meek:Like, I was just like, yeah, let's think about skill.
Michelle Meek:And, and, you know, sports can be entertaining without this.
Michelle Meek:And if you want to watch boxing, go watch boxing.
Michelle Meek:Like, I just, I don't really, I don't have a lot of sympathy for that.
Michelle Meek:Like, you know, especially in youth.
Michelle Meek:Like, okay, I don't care.
Michelle Meek:I'm not talking about professional sports.
Michelle Meek:Like, I don't, you know, that's a different level.
Michelle Meek:If you're at that level, fine.
Michelle Meek:That's a whole other kind of Hannah Bean.
Michelle Meek:I'm talking about kids, kids who want to play sports.
Michelle Meek:Kids who don't need to be gendered when they're playing sports.
Michelle Meek:Like, it's just not necessary.
Michelle Meek:There can be leagues that have different levels based on size or skill or some combination of those.
Michelle Meek:And they can play other teams that are their size and skill and they can be co ed.
Michelle Meek:And then it just eliminates this obsession with constantly saying, pick a box, pick a box.
Michelle Meek:I mean, you know, the thing is that I, I feel like as a society, the best way forward is for us to be more open with gender so that rather than someone feeling like they have to move from this box to that box, they can just be who they want to be and not have to constantly make a decision of which side do they need to pick.
Michelle Meek:And in order to do that, we need to pull out, we need to pull back from all this gendering that we've been doing in our culture.
Michelle Meek:You know, we really do.
Michelle Meek:And, and it's pervasive.
Michelle Meek:I mean, I had my older kid went to math class the first day, and the teacher had created a seating char based on what she perceived as the gender of everyone in the class.
Michelle Meek:I mean, it was just like, this is math, you know, and so I think that there's just, you know, I want Us to kind of think more consciously about what we're really accomplishing with that and, and just, you know, be open to new ways of thinking about it.
Host:Right.
Host:Well, and I think that's the biggest thing right there.
Host:Right?
Host:Be open to new ways of thinking about it and be open to the different possibilities.
Host:Just because it's always been done this way is not a good reason.
Michelle Meek:No, it's not.
Host:And in fact, it's, it's a bad reason.
Michelle Meek:It is.
Michelle Meek:So life, like you're telling your kid it's because I said so.
Michelle Meek:It's like, okay, that's not an answer.
Host:Correct, Correct.
Host:I mean, oh my goodness, let's, it's time to move forward.
Host:And there's so much research and there's more research coming every single day about gender being a spectrum.
Host:It's right.
Michelle Meek:We don't need boxes and it's coming.
Michelle Meek:I mean, I don't know if our culture is fully prepared for the numbers that are going to come out in the next few studies, but, you know, I see it.
Michelle Meek:And there in some communities, they've already found that 1 in 10 youth are identifying as gender diverse.
Michelle Meek:And I have a feeling that those numbers are going to be even higher in a number of years.
Michelle Meek:So it's, you know, just again, like, this is where I really think that we need to take our cue from the youth and realize that if we don't want to be one of those people who's like on the wrong side of history yet again, one of those generations who's like putting their foot down and saying, but this is how we've done it, you know, I don't personally want to do that.
Michelle Meek:And sometimes people have been surprised because I am a, you know, fierce feminist advocate for women's rights and have been for many years.
Michelle Meek:And some people think, oh, that that means that you're going to be kind of anti trans, but absolutely not.
Michelle Meek:Like, to me, I have always felt like as a feminist, the goal is to make gender a non issue, that ultimately as a society I want us to all be equal.
Michelle Meek:And that means, and if that means that we have to completely break down the walls of gender to do that, like I'm there with the hammer, right?
Host:Exactly, exactly.
Host:Oh, I love that you said that and I love that you brought that up because I know that is kind of an underlying question that people have as well and get a place where people get stuck and again, you know, where humans love to have labels and you know, if you're this, then how can you possibly be this right?
Host:So I appreciate you saying that a lot and clarifying and clarifying that.
Host:For me, it always has made perfect sense that someone who is a feminist would also be pro transgender, trans rights, lgbtq.
Host:I mean, it doesn't really cross over to lgbtq, but specifically trans rights.
Host:And I've always been, like, so perplexed by that because I'm like, well, why?
Michelle Meek:Yeah, I mean, I think some of the concerns are, like, that come out or like, well, what is this going to do to women's sports or girls sports?
Michelle Meek:Right.
Michelle Meek:If we make it genderless, are the boys just going to always be the best at everything?
Michelle Meek:You know, will the top league then be filled with boys and the bottom league be filled with girls?
Michelle Meek:But girls sports, frankly, are already second fiddle to boy sports.
Michelle Meek:So if you don't know that, then you're living in a fantasy world.
Host:Right.
Michelle Meek:And so I think that we're not really losing anything, and I think that if anything, we're gaining something, especially if we reconsider some of the rules to be more inclusive, because then we actually could make some progress.
Michelle Meek:You know, I was reading an article, I think it was in the New York Times about the history of men's sports and women's sports.
Michelle Meek:And one of the claims that the author was making I thought was so fascinating, which is that, you know, women for a long time weren't allowed to play sports.
Michelle Meek:And so men's sports built up this audience of fans and this fan base that women's sports was never able to build up.
Michelle Meek:Right.
Michelle Meek:And as a consequence, we're still living with that legacy, really, of discrimination.
Michelle Meek:And I think that, you know, continuing to fight to make women's sports equal to men's sports feels like a losing battle.
Michelle Meek:And I just think that at this point, especially for children, like, we need to rethink.
Michelle Meek:It's just not going to be okay for 1 in 10 youth or more in a community to be faced with, are you on the girls team or the boys team?
Michelle Meek:Why?
Michelle Meek:Like, it just doesn't make sense.
Michelle Meek:It's too many kids and it's too ridiculous, and we need to move on.
Host:Right?
Michelle Meek:My opinion.
Host:Right.
Host:Well, I mean, and it's a great opportunity, right?
Host:I see this as an incredible opportunity to really step out of this very traditional way of thinking and come up with some solutions that work for everyone and really do work for everyone in a way that, like you brought up a while ago, the whole idea of people all the time talking about how obesity is such a problem with our kids.
Host:Well, of course it is, because they don't have the opportunity to move.
Michelle Meek:Right, right.
Host:This is taken away from them at a very young age.
Host:And so, you know, there are solutions.
Host:It's just perhaps going to take being a little uncomfortable.
Michelle Meek:Right, exactly.
Host:So, so I just am really, I cannot wait to see this film.
Host:I think that, wow, what a great way of approaching three very, very important topics.
Michelle Meek:So I'm hoping it can be a conversation starter.
Michelle Meek:You know, I mean, we start with film festivals, but ultimately what I'd really like to do is screen it at schools and libraries and camps and community centers and places that families can come.
Michelle Meek:It's an eight minute film.
Michelle Meek:You know, watch the film and then have a conversation and maybe have youth from the community and parents from the community part of that, leading that conversation so that we can hear from them and what they think about this in their community and how, what are the issues and how can we resolve them?
Michelle Meek:Because like I said, it doesn't only affect gender diverse youth.
Michelle Meek:This, this problem with sports is already affecting youth who are like boys who are quote, too small.
Michelle Meek:Right.
Michelle Meek:And so there's plenty of people who can gain from rethinking this system.
Host:Absolutely, absolutely.
Host:100%.
Host:Oh my goodness.
Host:I think that you, this is just what a great conversation starter and what a great way to really further a conversation that, you know, people have been having in places like this.
Host:But really, you know, invite more and more people into this conversation to see what ideas come when you kind of let go of the stuff.
Host:So I am so appreciative of all the work that you've done.
Host:Oh my goodness, it is.
Michelle Meek:Thanks so much again.
Host:I'm so happy that you've been here.
Host:Is there anything else that you would like to add or to let my audience know about how they can find you?
Michelle Meek:Of course.
Host:I'll have all of your links and information in the show notes and I'll put it out on social media as well once this posts.
Host:But anything on top of that that you would like to offer the floor?
Michelle Meek:Yeah, I mean, I say come to my website@michellemiek.com because that's really where you can find all my socials.
Michelle Meek:You can learn about the film, you can subscribe for updates and that's the best way to kind of keep in touch.
Michelle Meek:You can reach out to me too.
Host:Good, that's perfect.
Host:Yes, yes, your website is wonderful.
Host:It's very intuitive and easy to find everything.
Host:So, yes, I always appreciate.
Host:Oh good.
Host:It's all here in one place.
Host:So thank you so much for being here.
Michelle Meek:Definitely.
Michelle Meek:Thanks so much for having me.
Host:Of course, of course.
Host:Thank you for the conversation and the I just feel so much, so much more well informed.
Michelle Meek:That's good.
Michelle Meek:I'm glad.
Heather Hester:Thanks so much for joining me today.
Heather Hester:If you enjoyed today's episode, I would be so grateful.
Heather Hester:For a rating or a review, click on the link in the show notes or go to my website Chris chrysalismama.com to stay up to date on my latest resources as well as to learn how you can work with me.
Heather Hester:Please share this podcast with anyone who needs to know that they are not alone.
Heather Hester:And remember to just breathe until next.
