Breaking the Silence: A Heartfelt Discussion on LGBTQ+ Youth and Suicide Prevention

Heather Hester: 00:00:05

Welcome to Just Breathe.

Heather Hester: 00:00:06

I am so happy you are here today.

Heather Hester: 00:00:09

Today's topic is one that is definitely more serious, one that is vitally, vitally important, especially for those of us with LGBTQ+KIDS.

Heather Hester: 00:00:25

Today, we are going to be talking about suicide prevention.

Heather Hester: 00:00:29

September is National Suicide Prevention Month, and I know we've talked a lot about numbers and statistics and facts and real life stories.

Heather Hester: 00:00:44

According to the Trevor Project, 41% of LGBTQ young people considered suicide just in the past year.

Heather Hester: 00:00:54

t number has gone up from the: 2022

Heather Hester: 00:01:01

We know, we understand why the numbers are the way that they are.

Heather Hester: 00:01:07

And I think that this is a really vitally important distinction to make and to make sure that everybody really, really understands that LGBTQ youth are not prone to suicide risk because of their sexual orientation or their gender identity.

Heather Hester: 00:01:26

They are prone to greater suicide risk, greater suicide ideation, greater self harm, greater mental health struggles because of the ways that they are misunderstood, mistreated, and the negative messaging that they receive and have received perhaps their entire lives.

Heather Hester: 00:01:51

So this is a topic that is very near and dear to me.

Heather Hester: 00:01:56

I think it is something that is so important that we talk about, that we learn about, that we learn how to talk about with our kids.

Heather Hester: 00:02:06

And that is exactly what today's guest is going to help us do.

Heather Hester: 00:02:11

I am absolutely, so delighted to have Anne Moss Rogers on the show today.

Heather Hester: 00:02:19

She is a mental health and suicide education expert, a professional speaker, trainer and consultant.

Heather Hester: 00:02:27

on Charles died by suicide in: 2015

Heather Hester: 00:02:44

Her subsequent blog, which is called Emotionally Naked, has reached millions of people.

Heather Hester: 00:02:51

She is the author of an award winning memoir called Diary of a Broken Mind and the bestseller Emotionally Naked, A Teacher's Guide to Preventing suicide and Recognizing students at Risk.

Heather Hester: 00:03:04

With her co writer, Dr.

Heather Hester: 00:03:06

Kimberly O'Brien, she has been a TEDx speaker, was featured in the New York Times Variety magazine, and was the first non clinician invited to speak on youth suicide at the National Institute of Mental Health.

Heather Hester: 00:03:22

So without further ado, I am so, so happy to bring you my conversation with Ann Moss.

Heather Hester: 00:03:41

Welcome to Just Breathe Parenting, your LGBTQ team, the podcast transforming the conversation around loving and raising an LGBTQ child.

Heather Hester: 00:03:54

My name is Heather Hester and I am so grateful you are here.

Heather Hester: 00:03:59

I want you to take a deep breath and know that for the time we are together, you are in the safety of the Just Breathe nest.

Heather Hester: 00:04:09

Whether today's show is an amazing guest or me sharing stories, resources, strategies, or lessons I've learned along our journey.

Heather Hester: 00:04:20

I want you to feel like we're just hanging out at a coffee shop, having a cozy chat.

Heather Hester: 00:04:26

Most of all, I want you to remember that wherever you are on this journey right now, in this moment in time, you are not alone.

Heather Hester: 00:04:43

Ann Moss, I am so happy that you are here with us today and I'm really looking forward to having this very, very important conversation and really learning from you because you have a not only incredible life experience, but you have really thrown yourself into learning all you possibly can and then educating others on that.

Heather Hester: 00:05:10

So I am grateful that you've taken time out of your schedule and are here to share with us today.

Heather Hester: 00:05:18

Thank you so much.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:05:20

Well, thank you for having the guts to have not only one, but several podcasts on suicide prevention, particularly for this group, which is so vital to saving lives.

Heather Hester: 00:05:36

Oh my goodness, yes.

Heather Hester: 00:05:38

The more and more that we learn, the more and more we realize that is the case and unfortunately right now, particularly the case.

Heather Hester: 00:05:48

So this work is so, so very important in conversation, is very important.

Heather Hester: 00:05:54

I'd like to kind of start maybe not so much at the beginning, but just a little background on who you are and why you are doing what you are doing in the world.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:06:09

digital marketing starting in: 1995

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:06:30

That early.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:06:32

And then I owned a digital marketing firm and my son was struggling as I was owning this firm and I was trying to juggle my professional life with, you know, what was going on in my family.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:06:51

So he started in middle school.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:06:55

I just got the feeling, talking to his fifth grade teacher, that we need to do private middle school.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:07:02

And I'm really glad we did that.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:07:05

Once we got to high school, there weren't as many choices because he had a sleep disorder.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:07:14

And I would have preferred to do a small private school, but all of them started at like 7:30.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:07:23

And for a child with a sleep disorder, that wasn't good because most of the ones were at least 30 minutes away.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:07:30

So I'd have to get him up even earlier.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:07:33

Yes, the public school was the only place who would accommodate his schedule where he could come in later so that he could get more sleep.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:07:45

And so that's what we went with.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:07:47

And I don't think it was the best choice for Charles, but I'm not sure what other choices we had at the time.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:07:56

So around his sophomore year, he gets chosen to be on homecoming court because he's the funniest, most popular kid in school.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:08:06

This is pretty rare for a sophomore.

Heather Hester: 00:08:09

Yeah.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:08:11

And I remember what a great day that was because my older son was also chosen to be on the court, and he actually won.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:08:19

And I remember they got this picture of me being totally shocked because my older child, strong introvert, but he'd really kind of come out that year.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:08:29

And in turn, and when I say come out, he'd come out of his shell because he was an introvert.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:08:36

And my younger son Charles, you know, just laughed across the field, he's being escorted by his favorite teacher.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:08:45

And I know people looking down on that field that day at my family thought, wow, you know, they really got it made.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:08:53

And what they didn't know is how much we were struggling with my younger son's mental health and how much we were struggling with his substance mis use, which had really started to escalate and really, really escalated after that proud mama moment, as I like to say.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:09:15

And I didn't know why he was doing drugs and alcohol.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:09:20

And later, from reading his rap music, I would find out it was because he was numbing thoughts of suicide.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:09:30

And to him, he thought, well, isn't it a lot better that I'm doing drugs and alcohol instead of killing myself?

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:09:39

You know, he's a teenager.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:09:40

He's not looking ahead to see the problems that could lead to.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:09:46

He's just thinking in the moment.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:09:48

And what happens when they do that is they, you know, are robbed of the ability to develop healthy coping strategies.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:09:57

He ends up being, you know, we're going to see a counselor because I don't know what to do, and I don't know what's what.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:10:05

I don't know what he's struggling with.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:10:07

And nobody offers to do a psychological evaluation.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:10:12

We're not getting a lot of help from the school.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:10:16

I mean, I had some advocates, but not as many as I really needed.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:10:21

And I'm sure members of your audience will certainly understand that he ends up.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:10:30

The counselor ends up recommended that we kidnap our son out of his bed and have him sent to wilderness program.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:10:39

And I know you've been there, right?

Heather Hester: 00:10:41

Yes.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:10:43

And then from there, we did get a psychological evaluation.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:10:48

And so that was the good part.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:10:50

And he was diagnosed with major depression for the first time, which I found shocking.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:10:57

You know, he's funniest, most popular kid in school.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:11:01

He seemed to relish in love life and a constant revolving door of friends.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:11:07

And it was really hard to Understand?

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:11:10

But I accepted it.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:11:13

And then he was diagnosed with adhd, combined type anxiety, and cannabis dependence because he had started using marijuana to be able to sleep.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:11:27

And he, you know, said it was natural and blah, blah, blah.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:11:31

But I want everyone to know that marijuana is not harmless.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:11:36

It triggers psychosis and schizophrenia.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:11:40

And it definitely.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:11:42

It.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:11:42

It wasn't trolls with destination drug.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:11:45

t wasn't until he returned in: 2014

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:12:09

And he would eventually confess.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:12:11

He would do all the things, the detox, the rehab, and he would go to a recovery house, and he would relapse within 24 hours.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:12:22

It was their protocol to take him back to detox.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:12:28

All he had to do was three days and he could come back to the recovery house.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:12:34

But he saw a friend there, and they walked out together.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:12:37

And for two weeks, I don't know where he is.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:12:40

Is he under a bridge?

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:12:42

Is he, you know, staying with friends?

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:12:46

And we get the occasional text, but not much other communication than that.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:12:53

Here's the thing.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:12:55

I also didn't call him a lie.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:13:02

And I still kind of wonder why I didn't.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:13:05

And I think it was fear or, you know, I need to do this tough love parenting thing, which is a bunch of bs, I'm going to tell you that right now.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:13:16

I wish I'd called him every day and said, as much as I want you to get well, I love you, even if you don't.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:13:23

But.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:13:24

But I didn't do that.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:13:25

I did tell him I loved him, and I did text him, and I got a last phone call that I didn't know was my last phone call.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:13:32

,: 2015

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:13:41

They had called us to say, we want to meet with you.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:13:47

And they delivered the worst news of our lives and told us our son had been found dead.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:13:52

And I remember thinking, it's got to be overdose, right?

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:13:57

I mean, he'd been addicted to heroin.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:14:00

And when my husband said, how did he die?

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:14:03

And the policeman said it was a suicide, I couldn't even breathe.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:14:09

I mean, my husband is having this explosion in the front seat, and I'm just.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:14:17

I've forgotten how to breathe.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:14:19

And it was like this extra twist of the knife, and it was like, doesn't he know we love him?

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:14:27

I just didn't understand why suicide.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:14:30

And it would just be a really long time before I would.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:14:34

I was.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:14:36

That intent piece makes the grief process so much harder.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:14:43

And you feel like, how did I miss pain and hurt so monumental.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:14:49

And, you know, I really.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:14:51

I beat myself up for years over that.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:14:57

But then I sold my digital marketing business and I started doing this full time because I wasn't finding the reward in the other things I was doing, and I was finding healing by putting my grief into action.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:15:15

So that's why I do what I do today.

Heather Hester: 00:15:26

I just need to take a moment, and I want everybody to take a moment because that.

Heather Hester: 00:15:34

And I want to honor.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:15:40

Who'S my baby.

Heather Hester: 00:15:44

The worst imaginable thing.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:15:48

And, I mean, I thought I took all those steps.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:15:51

I thought, this is going to insulate me.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:15:56

And not only did it blow up in my face, it blew up in the absolute ugliest way possible.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:16:05

I mean, I couldn't even imagine a scenario so awful and a journey to healing so absolutely and utterly painful is that once.

Heather Hester: 00:16:22

I just.

Heather Hester: 00:16:23

I cannot even begin to imagine.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:16:27

And.

Heather Hester: 00:16:31

I am just so deeply sorry.

Heather Hester: 00:16:34

I know that there are so many of us who, in different ways, can empathize with different pieces of your story, for sure.

Heather Hester: 00:16:45

And every parent.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:16:48

Right, Right.

Heather Hester: 00:16:50

Every single parent.

Heather Hester: 00:16:52

It is the worst, worst imaginable thing.

Heather Hester: 00:16:58

And.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:16:59

But I'm here today because I know that Youth who are LGBTQ + are at higher risk.

Heather Hester: 00:17:09

Yes.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:17:10

I do not want anyone to go through what I've been through, but we need to put in place and we need to be more.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:17:21

We need to be more aware with this group, because that connection and belonging and lack of acceptance, no matter how accepting you are in the family, the rest of the world isn't always complying with that.

Heather Hester: 00:17:38

Correct?

Heather Hester: 00:17:40

Correct.

Heather Hester: 00:17:41

So what are.

Heather Hester: 00:17:43

There's a lot of different questions here and a lot of different pieces to this that I want to make sure that we talk about.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:17:54

First.

Heather Hester: 00:17:55

I like that you just now touched on or began to say, I think where you were going, which is the fact that, yes, our LGBTQ plus kids are more at risk.

Heather Hester: 00:18:08

They are not at risk because they are LGBTQ plus.

Heather Hester: 00:18:13

They are at risk because of what's coming at them externally, the messaging that they've fed all of these years.

Heather Hester: 00:18:22

So before.

Heather Hester: 00:18:23

And we talk about this a lot here, like, before they even come out, they already have all of this messaging spinning in their heads.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:18:31

Sure.

Heather Hester: 00:18:32

So what can we do?

Heather Hester: 00:18:36

What is.

Heather Hester: 00:18:37

What are some of the steps or what are the steps that you kind of like to share about how to recognize this, what words, what should we say to our kids?

Heather Hester: 00:18:50

What kind of conversations should we be having?

Heather Hester: 00:18:56

How can we as parents be more vulnerable or share, you know, share different things?

Heather Hester: 00:19:06

And I heard that, you know, at several points in your story that, and I think that's something that, you know, it often does take some kind of crisis for us to learn that being vulnerable and sharing what we're thinking, what we're feeling with our kids is so vitally important, more important than we will ever know.

Heather Hester: 00:19:32

So kind of going back, what are the steps that you would say?

Heather Hester: 00:19:39

Like this is what to look for, this is what you need to do.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:19:44

So I think we look for kids who are isolating more.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:19:49

Especially it's natural for them to kind of pull away from you, their parent at this age, and to align more with their peers.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:19:58

But when they're pulling away from you and their peers and they're isolating alone in a room, that's a red flag.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:20:09

Self deprecating remarks.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:20:11

Nobody likes me.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:20:13

Everyone hates me.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:20:14

I'm so stupid.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:20:16

We need to start to ask more questions.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:20:19

Say, what makes you say that?

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:20:22

I'd love to know.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:20:24

And remember, when you ask questions, to ask with curiosity, not shame, not I'm going to teach you a lesson or I'm going to set you straight.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:20:35

You're listening and you want that person to feel heard.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:20:40

Which means not offering solutions, but just asking more questions.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:20:47

So what we're going to look for is we're going to look for kids who are absent a lot.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:20:54

Maybe they're going to the school nurse a lot.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:20:58

Charles did that.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:21:00

So they have backaches, headaches, they catch more stuff, they go to the doctor more, they go to the ER more.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:21:06

Those kids are often at risk.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:21:08

So if you know your school nurse by first name, it can be likely that your child might be at higher risk of suicide.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:21:19

But it's not the only thing.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:22:16

It's kind of the combination of a bunch of risk factors that kind of come together all at once.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:22:23

Are they falling asleep a lot in class?

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:22:26

That means they might be having trouble falling asleep at night, behaving recklessly and taking chances.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:22:36

You know, you've talked about drugs and alcohol and they're popping every pill they can find because they don't care if they're going to die.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:22:45

I think we really need to look out for those things.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:22:48

And what they say, I'm so worthless.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:22:52

I'm such a burden.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:22:54

I can't do this anymore.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:22:55

Now a lot of people think suicide is selfish.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:22:58

It's not.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:22:59

It is really about feeling despair and feeling like you're so worthless if you were gone, no one would care.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:23:09

But I want everyone here to know that that continuum, or the time they're in a suicidal episode is a limited amount of time.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:23:19

And 20 minutes is about average.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:23:22

And it goes kind of like up and down.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:23:27

And at no time is anyone 100% committed to the idea of dying by suicide.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:23:35

So they're always ambivalent on some level.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:23:39

And the really, really intense feelings of, I want to die, and I want to die now to stop this pain, those last 60 to 90 seconds, within that 20 minute or so, continuing.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:23:53

And it can be shorter and it can be longer, but that's just an example, okay?

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:24:00

And so I want people to know they come out of it.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:24:04

So let's say they've taken some over the counter medication and they are at risk, by the way, taking too much Tylenol or whatever they took.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:24:17

They may come tell you, and you're wondering, well, if they were trying to kill themselves, why are they telling me now?

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:24:24

That's because they've come out of that suicidal process and they're like, I don't want to die anymore.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:24:31

In that moment, they did.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:24:33

And then that changes, right?

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:24:36

So that's the sort of basic overview.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:24:39

And if you've been hearing your child say any of this, it's time to say, you know, I was listening to this podcast episode today, and the woman was talking about her son who died.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:24:54

And if a child says these phrases, then we need to ask the question, are you thinking of suicide?

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:25:02

Because if you want to know if someone is thinking suicide, you have to ask directly.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:25:10

What you will typically see on someone's face is relief because they've been wanting to tell you.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:25:19

And that's what people don't understand, is that kids who struggle with thoughts of suicide want desperately to tell you.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:25:28

They find me online and I've had conversations with people with kids for two years, and they'll sometimes they get around to telling somebody within two days, and sometimes it takes them two years, right?

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:25:47

But they really want to tell, and they struggle with telling you because they worry about how you'll accept it and how you'll react.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:25:59

First thing, do not panic.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:26:02

Whatever you have to do, whatever you have to pull from, you've been these parents, you guys, you've been through a lot.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:26:10

You know better than to panic.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:26:12

Take that deep breath, right?

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:26:15

And just start asking questions.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:26:18

How long have you felt this way?

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:26:20

Tell me more about how you feel, if any.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:26:25

I think it's really important Maybe not at this sitting, you know, if you're actually, your child's in suicidal ideation, but later on you want, you want to have the conversation of being more vulnerable, you know, being more vulnerable yourself and sharing with them what your fears are for them.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:26:50

You know, when, when you told me that, all I could think about was how much I miss you and how much I love you.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:27:01

But at that moment I needed to be there for you.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:27:06

I'm not handling this well right now.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:27:08

I'm kind of freaking out and wanting to text you and call you constantly and that's not going to help either one of us.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:27:18

So I'm joining the support group or discussion group so I can get support and not do that because it's not effective.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:27:30

And then you can come up, ask them, well, I want to ask you every day, are you thinking of suicide?

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:27:37

But if we could come up with a code phrase, you know, my toenails are blue, you know, whatever you want.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:27:45

Right.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:27:46

And give them that agency to come up with the funny phrase.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:27:50

You know, you're not going to want me to ask that every day, but we need to agree that this, that's what this phrase means.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:28:00

And it's just a way of us to communicate and for you to bring down my anxiety about this, which I'm asking your help.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:28:10

So when you do that, you're saying you're important to me.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:28:15

I need your help for my anxiety.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:28:20

And just your presence and your thoughtfulness or your random hugs will help make that happen.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:28:29

So you're making them a part of that process.

Heather Hester: 00:28:35

I, that's great.

Heather Hester: 00:28:36

I really, really love that.

Heather Hester: 00:28:39

So many different pieces there that are so actionable and so easy to do because I think when we think, when we think about this it seems very.

Heather Hester: 00:28:51

Just big and it does.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:28:53

And scary and you.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:28:55

And you think, I can't fix this.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:28:58

And I want all your listeners to know you cannot, you cannot fix this for them.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:29:04

You can be there to support them, you can be there to love them, but it's okay not to have all the answers.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:29:14

It's okay to say, I don't even know what to do yet.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:29:19

Let's text: 741741

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:29:25

Let's do that together.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:29:27

Or call the Trevor hotline together and let's see what they suggest for next steps.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:29:38

As parents, we often want to come out is knowing it all and I think we need to reveal our vulnerability that we don't.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:29:49

But we're willing to learn along with them, right?

Heather Hester: 00:32:21

Absolutely.

Heather Hester: 00:32:22

Well, and I think that when they realize, you know, that helps them realize our humanity.

Heather Hester: 00:32:29

Right.

Heather Hester: 00:32:30

We're not on that pedestal of the parent.

Heather Hester: 00:32:33

Right.

Heather Hester: 00:32:33

All of a sudden that brings us down to like, oh, they're human too.

Heather Hester: 00:32:37

And oh, they're, they're feeling this.

Heather Hester: 00:32:41

Right.

Heather Hester: 00:32:41

Like their feelings are similar to my feelings and I can communicate with them, which I is.

Heather Hester: 00:32:52

I think such is a, it is a game changer in as far as relationship with your child, specifically your teenager.

Heather Hester: 00:33:02

I do love that you brought up the Trevor project and any of these hotlines which will all be in the show notes for you all.

Heather Hester: 00:33:12

But again, I think that is such a great initial go to because I think there is that moment where you're sitting in this and the two of you are communicating and you're thinking it is such a natural thing for a parent to be like, I just want to fix.

Heather Hester: 00:33:31

Right.

Heather Hester: 00:33:32

And I want to help and I want to do.

Heather Hester: 00:33:34

And, and this is something that you can do and offer to do it with your child.

Heather Hester: 00:33:41

Which I love that you said that too, because that takes kind of that I'm alone piece and it's scary.

Heather Hester: 00:33:48

Right, Right.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:33:49

And you're so, you're showing partnership.

Heather Hester: 00:33:53

Right.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:33:53

You know, I'm let, let's figure this out.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:33:57

Plus you're giving them agency.

Heather Hester: 00:34:00

Yep.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:34:00

Which is so important for their future mental health.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:34:03

And I want to also add, there's the trans lifeline too.

Heather Hester: 00:34:06

Yes.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:34:07

So if you've got a trans child, you definitely want to read because they're the people who understand.

Heather Hester: 00:34:13

Right.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:34:14

And you're going to get somebody on the line who's been through this and they understand this and that's what you really need.

Heather Hester: 00:34:23

Absolutely, absolutely.

Heather Hester: 00:34:25

And they're, they are going to be able to not only listen in the best way, but share the most helpful information they are and direct you where perhaps you need to go next or.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:34:41

You know what, the friendly, friendly resources.

Heather Hester: 00:34:45

Exactly, exactly.

Heather Hester: 00:34:48

I'm curious your thoughts on this.

Heather Hester: 00:34:51

A while back I spoke with someone who also works in, in this similar field who suggested that when we have these conversations with our child and we really talk about whether it's suicidal ideation or when they are in that moment.

Heather Hester: 00:35:12

Right.

Heather Hester: 00:35:13

And thank you for breaking that down so clearly that if you ask the question, why would you want to stay here?

Heather Hester: 00:35:23

Why do.

Heather Hester: 00:35:24

Why do you want to stay here?

Heather Hester: 00:35:27

And have them start naming reasons that they want to stay here, that, that does something in the brain and I'm curious your thoughts on that.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:35:42

So at the point where they're in ideation, they're so fixated with their tunnel vision.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:35:51

You can ask that.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:35:52

It's okay to ask that.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:35:54

But understand that they may not be able to formulate an answer, and most likely it's going to be, I'm worthless.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:36:03

There are no reasons to stay here because emotionally, they don't have the capacity to wrap their heads around that.

Heather Hester: 00:36:13

Sure.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:36:13

However, most of the time, we are not in suicidal ideation.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:36:18

And I do something with teenagers and college kids on an index card.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:36:27

What are your reasons for living?

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:36:30

And they write it down in their own handwriting.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:36:34

And this has.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:36:36

It's called the crisis response plan.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:36:38

And it's Dr.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:36:39

Craig Bryant.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:36:40

He gets credit for this.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:36:42

And the numbers and success rates are incredible.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:36:45

And I think everyone should have this index card.

Heather Hester: 00:36:48

Right.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:36:50

What is so crucial about it is what are the things that make that make life worth living?

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:36:56

And what along with things like family, my dog, my YouTube channel, and my fan.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:37:04

You know, it might be my football, might be my dog, but you also want them to also think of a past memory to also.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:37:16

And just a couple of clues on that card to sort of trigger that memory to mine.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:37:23

I've got on my card Vienna, because I had dinner one night in a castle, Indiana, and I was invited to this dinner, and it was through my husband's business.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:37:35

We had no idea what.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:37:37

And it was so lavish.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:37:40

It was so fabulous.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:37:43

We were sitting in this table, and I've never laughed so hard my whole night.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:37:49

And everybody kept coming up to our table, including the royalty, because we were laughing so hard.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:37:56

And we clearly just had the magic that night.

Heather Hester: 00:37:59

Oh, my gosh.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:38:01

And so that's all I have to remember.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:38:03

And then I'm back in a happy place.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:38:07

So writing down little things that trigger a memory, one dad had put on his card.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:38:14

Remember how good Angela was during my cancer treatment?

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:38:19

And how his daughter had nursed him the whole time through his cancer treatment and gotten him newspapers and read him stories, and now he's feeling suicidal, and that was his way of kind of resetting his own brain.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:38:37

If you ask them to take out that card when they are suicidal, it reminds them of those things they wrote down themselves.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:38:49

And that is a more effective strategy because for them to come up with those reasons in ideation is pretty rare.

Heather Hester: 00:39:00

Right.

Heather Hester: 00:39:01

That makes sense.

Heather Hester: 00:39:02

Just because you're in that crisis.

Heather Hester: 00:39:04

Fight or flight, right?

Heather Hester: 00:39:06

Yep.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:39:07

So I want to finish the rest of what goes on that card.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:39:11

So you've got your reasons for living, and then you have people that you reach out to, and those are your trusted adults.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:39:20

So maybe it is your school counselor because she's been super supportive.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:39:25

But not just your parents, other trusted adults.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:39:30

You want to write down the crisis lines you'd reach out to with this, you know, group.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:39:37

It would be some of those Trevor project.

Heather Hester: 00:39:40

Yeah.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:39:41

Lifelines.

Heather Hester: 00:39:42

Right.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:39:43

Maybe you put down a warm line.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:39:47

Almost every state has a warm line.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:39:50

And when you're struggling, that's a good place to call.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:39:54

So you want them to think ahead of time.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:39:57

What is my plan?

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:39:59

Because when you are in that moment, and that's why they train people in the army, because when they're in that emotional fight or flight, I'm going to be killed in battle.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:40:11

What kicks in their training?

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:40:13

Fix it.

Heather Hester: 00:40:14

Right.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:40:15

And if they've written it in their own handwriting, then it's so much more effective.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:40:21

So those are the basics.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:40:22

Some people like to add.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:40:24

What are the emotional feelings that trigger my thoughts of suicide?

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:40:31

But that gets a little complicated.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:40:33

So I want to just kind of keep it.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:40:35

What are the things that make life worth living?

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:40:38

Who would you reach out to?

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:40:39

And what are the numbers that you would call.

Heather Hester: 00:40:44

Love that.

Heather Hester: 00:40:44

That is incredible.

Heather Hester: 00:40:46

Tell me again who you credited this to.

Heather Hester: 00:40:49

Somebody who did.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:40:49

Who was Dr.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:40:51

Craig Bryan.

Heather Hester: 00:40:52

Okay.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:40:53

And it's called the Crisis Response Plan crp.

Heather Hester: 00:40:59

Okay.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:41:00

So basically I've let him know I kind of adapted this and you know, I'm just doing a little crisis plan now.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:41:09

It's not done.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:41:10

Like he does this whole training and I'm not doing every aspect of his training.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:41:17

I'm just getting kids in a five or ten minute moment, right.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:41:23

To fill out an index card and put.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:41:25

What is the most effective part, which his study says are those reasons to live.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:41:31

He said, so many people, when I did this index card, and I would see them years later, they'd pull out some worn piece of paper, you know, and he go.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:41:43

And they would say, these reasons for living have what kept me alive in difficult times.

Heather Hester: 00:41:51

This is incredible.

Heather Hester: 00:41:52

I mean, this is something that truthfully, we all should.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:41:56

We all need it.

Heather Hester: 00:41:57

I'm sitting here thinking like, this is going to be a family activity, right?

Heather Hester: 00:42:03

This is something.

Heather Hester: 00:42:04

It is that important.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:42:06

I'm gonna do this on a college campus this month.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:42:12

And it's mandatory for the freshmen to.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:42:15

It'll be: 1800

Heather Hester: 00:42:19

That is awesome.

Heather Hester: 00:42:21

I mean, that is awesome.

Heather Hester: 00:42:25

This is really, really incredible.

Heather Hester: 00:42:28

I think even, you know, more so than perhaps we even realize.

Heather Hester: 00:42:33

I'm just thinking like the, the massive effect that this could have.

Heather Hester: 00:42:37

And I'm so grateful to you for sharing it.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:42:41

Oh, you're welcome.

Heather Hester: 00:42:42

I.

Heather Hester: 00:42:43

One more thing that I just really wanted.

Heather Hester: 00:42:46

We're kind of going to jump a topic here really quickly because I know we're.

Heather Hester: 00:42:50

And looking at our time here, but we had talked a little bit before we started about how to advocate for our children.

Heather Hester: 00:43:01

So, you know, there are many reasons that adolescents, teenagers can find themselves in bullying situations or difficult situations at school, later on being out in the LGBTQ community.

Heather Hester: 00:43:18

So as parents, when we are advocating, whether it's in the school or, you know, on a sports team or in the community, what advice do you have for parents in approaching that?

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:43:34

I think before you go, you gotta have that pep talk of, I am not going to jump into an emotional tsunami here.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:43:44

I am going to approach this topic in a way.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:43:49

So think about your audience.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:43:52

Think about what their issues are.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:43:56

You know, have they been sort of anti lgbtq because you want to get the most to your child that you can't.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:44:04

You're not going to convert this person overnight.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:44:07

Right?

Heather Hester: 00:44:08

Right.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:44:09

If that's the situation you're walking into.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:44:12

So think about the situation you're walking into and have a plan and sort of make it a game.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:44:19

What is the most I can get from my child, despite the fact that they may be against this or think it's against their religion?

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:44:29

So, for example, when I do trainings, the first time I did a role play between a teacher and LGBTQ student, three people walked out.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:44:42

And I thought, well, I guess I just need to toss that role play.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:44:45

And then I was like, no, I don't.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:44:48

That's not right.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:44:49

These kids are at risk.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:44:51

I'm all about saving lives.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:44:53

So I had to figure out a way to accommodate those that thought this was wrong.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:45:01

I had to take out my own belief system and my own emotions related to this.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:45:07

Instead of getting mad going, my kid died from this.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:45:11

You know, I had to just divorce all that and say, do you really want a child to die?

Heather Hester: 00:45:18

Right.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:45:18

But, you know, any child, and, you know, if any child does by suicide, it puts everyone else at risk.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:45:27

If it's a sports team or a grade level or a whole school.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:45:32

School, nobody wants that.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:45:35

You know, nobody wants to deal with grieving students and negative press.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:45:40

And so you got to sort of make that plan of going in so you reach your goal, understanding that you may not get everything you want, but you just want your foot in the door.

Heather Hester: 00:45:58

Right.

Heather Hester: 00:45:59

So as much as you may want to be, you know, the Mama Bear LGBTQ+ Advocate, you may have to temper that a bit.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:46:09

Right.

Heather Hester: 00:46:10

And shift that to, I am going to appeal to this person's humanity.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:46:18

Right.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:46:19

You have to understand them.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:46:20

Like when I go into rural communities and I talk about access to firearms, if I go in telling them they need to put their bullets in a warehouse three miles away from their house, do you think they're going to do that?

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:46:34

I mean, it's a firearm owning community.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:46:36

They're big hunters.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:46:37

No way.

Heather Hester: 00:46:38

Right.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:46:39

I have to appeal to their humanity.

Heather Hester: 00:46:41

Right.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:46:42

I tell them rural communities are known for being there for their neighbor.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:46:48

Would you not want to be there for your neighbor when they're going.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:46:52

Going through a hard time?

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:46:53

And that may involve changing the code on their gun safe until they're in a better place with their agreement.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:47:03

And you make this agreement ahead of time and you do this for each other, showing discretion.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:47:10

You don't have to announce it to the whole community.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:47:14

But having that kind of thought process before you go and you want to go in with guns blazing and a sword lifted and I'm, you know, I'm gonna show them what is the first thing that happens.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:47:28

They dig their heels in.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:47:30

There's no way.

Heather Hester: 00:47:31

Right.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:47:32

I could give them anything.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:47:34

Yep.

Heather Hester: 00:47:34

They shut down or walk out.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:47:37

Yep.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:47:37

That is not your goal.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:47:39

Your goal is just, it's an inch by inch process.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:47:44

And so you have to appeal to them.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:47:47

Like you said on, on a human, on a human level.

Heather Hester: 00:47:53

Oh my goodness, absolutely.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:47:55

What is the Christian thing to do here?

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:47:57

You know, if.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:47:59

And defining Christianity is, you know, some.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:48:06

Something that means that you don't want other people to die and you want to be there for each other, you know, no matter what.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:48:15

And I think it's really important.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:48:21

Like when kids are in ideation a lot of times people will think, well, that's the time to tell them that this is wrong and you know, try to convert them and like, no, no, please don't do that.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:48:35

Please don't.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:48:36

Yes.

Heather Hester: 00:48:37

Yeah.

Heather Hester: 00:48:39

Oh, goodness gracious, no.

Heather Hester: 00:48:42

And maybe not ever, but hopefully not ever with that language.

Heather Hester: 00:48:47

I mean, I think that.

Heather Hester: 00:48:48

Yes, goodness gracious.

Heather Hester: 00:48:50

And, and recogn.

Heather Hester: 00:48:51

You know, I guess in you saying using that specific language, I mean, that kind of is another.

Heather Hester: 00:48:57

I think we could probably go off on a whole other tangent here on just fear, because that's what that is.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:49:04

All, all of it fear based.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:49:05

And I'm not exactly understanding what they're afraid of.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:49:10

But they are.

Heather Hester: 00:49:13

Yes.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:49:14

Somehow it unhinges their belief system.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:49:19

But it's like, I don't know that it has anything to do with you.

Heather Hester: 00:49:23

Right, exactly.

Heather Hester: 00:49:25

Exactly.

Heather Hester: 00:49:26

It is difficult, but I think that I Think for us when, you know, understanding that's where the basis is.

Heather Hester: 00:49:35

Makes it easier to come in and approach people who are operating from a place of fear and.

Heather Hester: 00:49:42

Right, right.

Heather Hester: 00:49:43

And knowing how to talk with them and.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:49:47

Oh, that's so succinctly said.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:49:49

Thank you.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:49:51

Thank you for making me sound good.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:49:53

Oh, that's wonderful.

Heather Hester: 00:49:57

You're welcome.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:49:59

Oh, my goodness.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:50:02

You can give me an hour to cut that out, then I'll just stop.

Heather Hester: 00:50:08

Oh, my goodness.

Heather Hester: 00:50:09

Well, I would love to give you a few minutes.

Heather Hester: 00:50:12

You have done some incredible writing and presenting and you have so many incredible resources available.

Heather Hester: 00:50:23

And so I would love for you to share whatever you'd like to share right now.

Heather Hester: 00:50:29

And to everyone listening, as always, this will be in the show notes and on my website and all of the places so you will be able to find Anne Moss incredible teaching and thoughts.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:50:45

So I think the most important page, I think if you go to mental health awareness education or you can Google Anne Moss Rogers, you'll find me click on books.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:50:59

And on that page you'll see my two published books.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:51:02

But you'll also there's a link at the top and it says free ebook library.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:51:08

And you can click on that and it'll talk about 10 Ways to Prevent suicide in our children, ways to recognize depression, and all sorts of really good resources that are free.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:51:24

All you need to do is put in an email and you can download them.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:51:29

And most of them are about 12 pages.

Heather Hester: 00:51:32

That's incredible.

Heather Hester: 00:51:33

That is really, really fantastic.

Heather Hester: 00:51:35

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Heather Hester: 00:51:38

And you have a very cool T shirt that we can all proudly wear.

Heather Hester: 00:51:43

That is just listen.

Heather Hester: 00:51:46

And I think those are such wise, wise words that if we do nothing else, we hear them and we see them and.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:51:56

That's right.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:51:57

Stop suicide with your ears.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:52:00

Yeah, it's been very popular.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:52:02

Sure.

Heather Hester: 00:52:03

I love that.

Heather Hester: 00:52:04

I love that.

Heather Hester: 00:52:05

Well, thank you.

Heather Hester: 00:52:05

Thank you so much for being here with me today.

Heather Hester: 00:52:09

And I know this will have such an incredible impact and just educating and helping, you know, save a life.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:52:20

Thank you so much.

Anne Moss Rogers: 00:52:21

I appreciate your having me today.

Heather Hester: 00:52:23

Thank you so much for being here today.

Heather Hester: 00:52:27

Wow, that was really, really incredible.

Heather Hester: 00:52:30

And I am sure that you gleaned as much from that as I did.

Heather Hester: 00:52:36

Just.

Heather Hester: 00:52:37

Holy cow.

Heather Hester: 00:52:41

I have to say, I'm just.

Heather Hester: 00:52:43

I'm still processing and digesting and I'm.

Heather Hester: 00:52:47

One of the first things I'm going to be doing is creating an index card with each of my kids, suggesting to them and sharing with them how to do this and doing it for myself and sharing it with Steve as well, so I highly recommend that.

Heather Hester: 00:53:03

I think that is an incredible, incredible tool and suggestion.

Heather Hester: 00:53:09

Please share this episode with someone that you love, someone you know who could benefit from listening to it, and if you have questions or wish to talk to somebody.

Heather Hester: 00:53:20

The Hotlines as well as all of Ann Moss other resources are in the Show Notes as well as on my website.

Heather Hester: 00:53:30

Thanks so much for joining me today.

Heather Hester: 00:53:33

If you enjoyed today's episode, I would be so grateful for a rating or a review.

Heather Hester: 00:53:40

Click on the link in the Show Notes or go to my website chrysalismama.com to stay up to date on my latest resources as well as to learn how you can work with me.

Heather Hester: 00:53:53

Please share this podcast with anyone who needs to know that they are not alone and remember to just breathe.

Heather Hester: 00:54:03

Until next time.