Paws for Patrick: The Healing Power of Emotional Support Animals

Host: 00:00:07

Welcome back.

Host: 00:00:08

I am really happy you are here, that you are taking time for yourself, and I'm honored that you're spending it here with me.

Host: 00:00:18

While we tend to focus on mental health topics at specific times of the year, I really believe we ought to make it part of our daily conversations.

Host: 00:00:28

Think about the things that we do automatically, every single day to take care of our physical health.

Host: 00:00:35

We brush our teeth.

Host: 00:00:37

We eat healthy foods, or we at least try to most of the time, right?

Host: 00:00:42

We exercise.

Host: 00:00:44

We maybe even take extra vitamins or supplements.

Host: 00:00:48

And we proactively take care of our physical bodies because we know we are potentially susceptible or genetically predisposed to certain diseases.

Host: 00:01:00

But what do we do automatically to take care of our mental health?

Host: 00:01:05

Do we meditate?

Host: 00:01:06

Do we do breathing exercises?

Host: 00:01:09

Do we talk to a therapist or other support person?

Host: 00:01:13

Do we take a moment when we need it instead of white knuckling it?

Host: 00:01:18

Do we talk about taking care of our mental health in the same way that we talk about taking care of our physical health?

Host: 00:01:25

They are intertwined and they directly affect the other.

Host: 00:01:30

My guest today works daily to normalize mental health and, when necessary, advocate for those who need it.

Host: 00:01:37

years and: 1000

Host: 00:01:45

He is insightful and is one of those beautiful humans who can connect teenagers in the most authentic ways.

Host: 00:01:53

Dan is my neighbor on the North Shore of Chicago.

Host: 00:01:56

He serves on the board of Paws for Patrick, which we will learn about in a few minutes.

Host: 00:02:01

And he is the host of the podcast Not Allowed to Die.

Heather Hester: 00:02:17

Welcome to Just Breathe Parenting your LGBTQ Teen, the podcast transforming the conversation around loving and raising an LGBTQ child.

Heather Hester: 00:02:30

My name is Heather Hester, and I am so grateful you are here.

Daniel Magler: 00:02:34

I want you to take a deep.

Heather Hester: 00:02:36

Breath and know that for the time we are together, you are in the safety of the Just Breathe nest.

Heather Hester: 00:02:44

Whether today's show is an amazing guest or me sharing stories, resources, strategies, or lessons I've learned along our journey, I want you to feel like we're just hanging out at a coffee shop, having a cozy chat.

Heather Hester: 00:03:02

Most of all, I want you to remember that wherever you are on this journey right now, in this moment in time, you are not alone.

Deanne: 00:03:17

Well, Deanne, thank you so much for being here with me today, and I'm really excited to have this conversation about one of my favorite topics, which I think is.

Deanne: 00:03:29

I don't know if that's the best way to say that, but I really do enjoy talking about mental health and sharing people experts on the topic and people who just have so such a wealth of information.

Deanne: 00:03:43

And so I am delighted that you are here.

Deanne: 00:03:47

And one of the things that you do that we learned, we learned about each other when we were.

Deanne: 00:03:53

We were talking earlier, was that you are on the board for this extraordinary.

Deanne: 00:03:59

It's located in the Chicago area, which you and I actually are both in, which is also very cool.

Deanne: 00:04:04

We found out.

Deanne: 00:04:04

And I had heard about this amazing organization.

Deanne: 00:04:08

It's called Pause for Patrick.

Deanne: 00:04:10

And so I thought we'd just start with that because I know everyone would love to hear.

Deanne: 00:04:16

Hear about this organization, why and why it is so very important.

Daniel Magler: 00:04:21

Well, thank you so much for having me on the podcast.

Daniel Magler: 00:04:23

I am.

Daniel Magler: 00:04:24

I am, as I've told you, a big fan, and I do recommend your podcast to people.

Daniel Magler: 00:04:27

So, like, it's.

Daniel Magler: 00:04:28

It's fun to actually be on, like, not just listening to your voice, but actually being part of the conversation.

Daniel Magler: 00:04:34

So.

Daniel Magler: 00:04:34

t their son Patrick in May of: 2020

Daniel Magler: 00:04:42

And I was Patrick's school social worker and knew him from his freshman year all the way into his senior year.

Daniel Magler: 00:04:48

And so obviously, it had a major impact on me.

Daniel Magler: 00:04:53

After he died, there was a GoFundMe that got put together by people who cared about the family.

Daniel Magler: 00:04:58

And the family said, we don't necessarily need this money.

Daniel Magler: 00:05:01

We want to take it and use it to help other people like Patrick.

Daniel Magler: 00:05:04

Patrick was not a huge fan of regular therapy.

Daniel Magler: 00:05:08

You know, he tried it.

Daniel Magler: 00:05:09

He didn't like medication.

Daniel Magler: 00:05:10

He didn't want to do any of those things.

Daniel Magler: 00:05:12

What really helped him when he was struggling was his dog Cece, and being with his dog.

Daniel Magler: 00:05:17

And so Patrick's parents were thinking, hey, how can we bring the love of animals to the people who need it the most?

Daniel Magler: 00:05:23

And so they got people together.

Daniel Magler: 00:05:25

And so Pause for Patrick has two main services that it provides.

Daniel Magler: 00:05:28

We have therapy dog handlers who.

Daniel Magler: 00:05:30

And this is all around the Chicago area, but primarily up in Lake county or right on that borderline of Lake and Cook, where our team of therapy dog handlers, we have 25 of them who will go to schools or mental health treatment facilities and bring dogs, therapy dogs to young people so that they can spend some time with them.

Daniel Magler: 00:05:48

And it has an incredible impact.

Daniel Magler: 00:05:49

They just light up.

Daniel Magler: 00:05:51

And everybody loves seeing the dogs anytime that they're there.

Daniel Magler: 00:05:54

So if anybody ever wants to learn to be a therapy dog handler or training our group tells more, spreads information about that.

Daniel Magler: 00:06:01

And if you are a person who has a therapy dog we would love.

Daniel Magler: 00:06:03

We're always recruiting more volunteers around that area.

Daniel Magler: 00:06:06

But the other thing we do is we help anybody all around the country.

Daniel Magler: 00:06:10

We focus on young people, but that young people is a pretty loosely defined term.

Daniel Magler: 00:06:15

Our oldest client has been 89 years old, down to like down to 6.

Daniel Magler: 00:06:20

So anybody with mental health disorders, again, but our focus is on young people to get an emotional, help them get an emotional support animal.

Daniel Magler: 00:06:27

So we have a budget where we can help people acquire an emotional support animal and even get some basic training.

Daniel Magler: 00:06:32

So not service animal or therapy dog training, but the kind of just obedience training, which would mean that if they're living in an apartment, they wouldn't get in trouble with annoying their neighbors and whatnot.

Daniel Magler: 00:06:41

And then I and other members of the therapists team, we will write emotional support animal letters free of charge.

Daniel Magler: 00:06:48

I'm actually doing one of those after we get off of here today for people so that they can have their animal in their dorm or in their apartment.

Daniel Magler: 00:06:56

Because we just believe that it can be transformational.

Daniel Magler: 00:07:00

And even if you have a great therapist, your therapist is not going to pick up the phone at three in the morning.

Daniel Magler: 00:07:04

But you can hug that dog, that cat, and you're that therapy bird.

Daniel Magler: 00:07:08

Emotional support animals don't have to be.

Daniel Magler: 00:07:10

They can be anything.

Daniel Magler: 00:07:11

Any animal that just connecting with it can help a person to feel better.

Daniel Magler: 00:07:14

And Patrick was not lgbtqia, but a couple of his really good friends are and were.

Daniel Magler: 00:07:20

And you know, we've helped them and just in, you know, in the queer community.

Daniel Magler: 00:07:23

I know, I work with a lot of kids that for so many people, when chosen family is a thing that people are having to create, often their furry friends are a huge part of that chosen family.

Daniel Magler: 00:07:35

So we want to again, particularly reach out to the people who are listening to this to realize again, if a person has a mental health disorder, anxiety, depression, anything like that, Claus for Patrick, who is a place that they should go to look for maybe some help and support.

Deanne: 00:07:50

I love that so much.

Deanne: 00:07:51

And I love that you explain the difference between therapy animal as opposed to an emotional support animal.

Deanne: 00:07:59

Because I, prior to us speaking, had, didn't really know that there was a difference.

Deanne: 00:08:04

And it makes a ton of sense.

Deanne: 00:08:05

But, you know, kind of relate to your point.

Deanne: 00:08:07

I know that you have behind you your emotional support animal, Mariska, who is your podcast guest host.

Deanne: 00:08:14

And I'm so happy that she's on with us now too.

Deanne: 00:08:18

And.

Deanne: 00:08:19

But having that, I mean, I have two dogs who are, you know, the biggest ding a lings in the world, but they the joy and the comfort.

Deanne: 00:08:28

And it is extraordinary, you know, when I always think, especially when I'm petting my one dog, like, you could have like, the most like, like the worst day ever.

Deanne: 00:08:38

Right?

Deanne: 00:08:38

And you sit down and you pet that dog, and it is amazing what that does for you.

Deanne: 00:08:44

Right.

Deanne: 00:08:45

And so I'm delighted.

Deanne: 00:08:48

I love that that is what you do for people, not just here in the Chicagoland area, but all around the country and really help educating on that piece.

Deanne: 00:09:00

Because also to your point, a traditional therapist isn't for everyone and it's not necessarily accessible either.

Deanne: 00:09:10

So this is just a lovely piece to know.

Deanne: 00:09:13

Oh, my gosh, this can work.

Deanne: 00:09:16

And this is why it works.

Daniel Magler: 00:09:18

Right.

Daniel Magler: 00:09:18

And that's just again, like, anybody can have a need and we're not working.

Daniel Magler: 00:09:22

It's not a competition.

Daniel Magler: 00:09:24

So for one person, yoga might not be their thing.

Daniel Magler: 00:09:26

For someone else it is.

Daniel Magler: 00:09:27

But we should all be working together to find, to cobble together what it's going to take for us to be our healthiest selves.

Daniel Magler: 00:09:33

And so that's where we want to be.

Daniel Magler: 00:09:35

And also, as you were kind of talking, we want to raise the awareness piece.

Daniel Magler: 00:09:38

And in the month of May, Palliser Patrick does a thing called Turn Our Towns Green around the Chicago area.

Daniel Magler: 00:09:43

And we're trying to expand that to a lot of campuses.

Daniel Magler: 00:09:46

So for college students, if they're interested in helping promote awareness on their college campus, they can reach out to us or turn our campuses green.

Daniel Magler: 00:09:54

And we're looking for people who want to be sort of captains or leading it and getting there, whether it's their fraternity, sorority, whether they're part of the marching band, and they just want to help put up signs.

Daniel Magler: 00:10:05

So during that month, we're really maybe Mental Health Awareness Month.

Daniel Magler: 00:10:10

So May and September are two big months of the year, September being Suicide Awareness Month.

Daniel Magler: 00:10:14

And so we just.

Daniel Magler: 00:10:16

But that May Turn Our Towns Green is a really.

Daniel Magler: 00:10:18

Also a big.

Daniel Magler: 00:10:19

And so up around the north, up and down the North Shore in the Chicagoland area, you'll see the Turn Our Town, the Paula Sir Patrick Turn Our Towns Green signs.

Daniel Magler: 00:10:26

Yeah.

Deanne: 00:10:26

Yes.

Deanne: 00:10:27

That is so.

Deanne: 00:10:28

I love that.

Deanne: 00:10:29

I'm sitting here thinking, oh, my goodness, my daughter, who is at the University of Michigan, I mean, she would be all over that.

Deanne: 00:10:38

And just knowing both of my kids, my older two who are away at college, who do they miss the most?

Deanne: 00:10:46

Dogs.

Deanne: 00:10:46

They cannot wait to get home to be with these dogs.

Deanne: 00:10:49

And you know, and just like the what.

Deanne: 00:10:52

What they do for them.

Deanne: 00:10:53

And.

Deanne: 00:10:53

And so it is something that if you stop and Think about it for two seconds.

Deanne: 00:10:57

You know, whatever.

Deanne: 00:10:58

Your animal is, right?

Deanne: 00:10:59

For us, it's our dog.

Deanne: 00:11:00

Some people, it's their cat or, like their bird, you said, right?

Deanne: 00:11:03

Or they're, you know, gigantic, you know, dragon.

Daniel Magler: 00:11:11

Those.

Deanne: 00:11:11

Those things, right?

Deanne: 00:11:13

Because I.

Deanne: 00:11:13

And I'm saying that because I'm that my daughter, my younger daughter, her freshman year, and they have an area and her high school that was kind of an emotional support area.

Deanne: 00:11:25

And I'm totally drawing a blank on the name of this creature, but it was like a big, gigantic lizard, and that was like the emotional support lizard.

Deanne: 00:11:34

And she loves this thing when she go in and pet it all the time.

Daniel Magler: 00:11:40

In the title of your podcast, you know, just breathe.

Daniel Magler: 00:11:43

So often, like, you know, it's hard when we're having anxiety attacks where the ability to slow down and to regulate our breathing is really challenging.

Daniel Magler: 00:11:51

And so a lot of the research shows that just while you're petting an animal, it does that grounding for us, and it helps us to be in that moment and regulate along with them.

Daniel Magler: 00:12:00

And what's interesting.

Daniel Magler: 00:12:01

So Dr.

Daniel Magler: 00:12:02

Janet Oy Gerlach of University of Toledo has done a lot of research that cats are actually somewhat more effective than dogs in helping people to just regulate that breathing.

Daniel Magler: 00:12:12

But some of the other new research is that one of the great things about dogs is that when they make eye contact with us, and we're getting that eye contact going back and forth again, a different sort of sense of feeling known and connected with, it helps to alleviate some of that loneliness and that sense of isolation.

Daniel Magler: 00:12:30

One of the movies that I recommend to some people, and again, it's not everybody's cup of tea, but as Good as it Gets with Jack Nicholson.

Daniel Magler: 00:12:37

And I think it's Greg Kinnear who plays his neighbor.

Daniel Magler: 00:12:43

And so the dog, and he's always with the dog, but you can see that that dog is.

Daniel Magler: 00:12:47

It's.

Daniel Magler: 00:12:48

It's something that, again, is grounding him.

Daniel Magler: 00:12:50

It's making him feel not alone, and it's that level of connection.

Daniel Magler: 00:13:50

So I think for all of us, and we are.

Daniel Magler: 00:13:52

There's an excellent book that I can't recommend enough.

Daniel Magler: 00:13:54

It's called Running with Sherman.

Daniel Magler: 00:13:56

And it talks about that intersection between our exercise, our mental health, and that as a species, we.

Daniel Magler: 00:14:03

We grew up alongside of animals.

Daniel Magler: 00:14:05

And so, like, we couldn't have come as far as we did without the domestication of dogs.

Daniel Magler: 00:14:09

And so it's only actually in the second half of the 20th century that we've gotten away from spending so much time with animals that we're a lot of.

Daniel Magler: 00:14:17

We are wired to be living alongside them and having them in our lives.

Daniel Magler: 00:14:21

And so when we're not doing that, we're losing something.

Daniel Magler: 00:14:24

So.

Daniel Magler: 00:14:24

Yeah.

Deanne: 00:14:25

Wow, that is phenomenal.

Deanne: 00:14:28

I.

Deanne: 00:14:28

It makes total sense, doesn't it?

Deanne: 00:14:31

But it's something that you just don't even think about or realize.

Deanne: 00:14:35

And because things are so fast paced and so fast moving, you know, most of us do not take the time to really stop and think about that.

Deanne: 00:14:45

Think about what that connection, you know, having that connection and what that connection is doing for us and for them.

Deanne: 00:14:53

Right.

Deanne: 00:14:54

And so I just applaud what you all are doing, and I'm so grateful for it.

Deanne: 00:15:05

And, and I, you know, it's funny being in the area I knew of pause for Patrick, but I wasn't entirely clear on exactly.

Deanne: 00:15:14

So I'm so grateful now to know this that I can, you know, at least be a voice, if nothing else.

Daniel Magler: 00:15:22

Well, that's, that's all we ask for it.

Daniel Magler: 00:15:24

And sometimes people are saying, well, it just feels too good to be true.

Daniel Magler: 00:15:27

Like, what do you mean?

Daniel Magler: 00:15:27

You're not, you're, you're not charging anything and you're not, you don't want anything from us.

Daniel Magler: 00:15:31

It just.

Daniel Magler: 00:15:32

No, all we want is for people to pay it forward.

Daniel Magler: 00:15:34

And there is a lot.

Daniel Magler: 00:15:35

If you go online and you look about emotional support animals, there is, there is a lot of.

Daniel Magler: 00:15:40

There are a lot of controversies among even some people who are really supportive of them about criticizing agencies that write emotional support animal letters because they may feel like, okay, well, you're going to ruin it for all of us.

Daniel Magler: 00:15:54

You know, the laws have been there to protect having emotional support animals.

Daniel Magler: 00:15:57

But there are organizations.

Daniel Magler: 00:15:59

For example, certapet is an organization where people can go on there and they get an interview set up with a clinician, and it's all legitimate, it's all legal, and you pay your 150 bucks and you get your emotional support animal letter.

Daniel Magler: 00:16:11

And so there are critics, though, who will say, well, that's not really a relationship.

Daniel Magler: 00:16:16

They don't really know the person.

Daniel Magler: 00:16:18

And is that legitimate?

Daniel Magler: 00:16:19

And so it all depends state by state.

Daniel Magler: 00:16:20

Different states have different regulations.

Daniel Magler: 00:16:22

But the point is, it doesn't take as a clinician and when I've been doing, I've had to have come up with diagnosis of people in 15 or 20 minutes when I'm working in the emergency room to determine what course of treatment are we giving.

Daniel Magler: 00:16:35

The way it works is the law says that in order for me to write a letter for someone about an emotional Support animal.

Daniel Magler: 00:16:41

I need to know that in my clinical judgment, that person has a disability that can be made better by being with an animal.

Daniel Magler: 00:16:49

And then I also.

Daniel Magler: 00:16:50

That relationship is what I pause for Patrick, though, we make sure our relationship is ongo so that if that person was to have a problem, like, gosh, I thought that having an animal, like one of, again, one of Patrick's friends who got a dog, he thought it was going to reduce his stress.

Daniel Magler: 00:17:05

But being a college student and having.

Daniel Magler: 00:17:07

Sharing a space, even though his friend, his roommates were on board with having the dog, the dog that he got was having a lot of barking issues.

Daniel Magler: 00:17:14

And so plaster Patrick, we paid extra to get some extra training for that dog, but it still was causing more stress than it was relieving.

Daniel Magler: 00:17:21

And so in that case, we helped.

Daniel Magler: 00:17:23

Were alongside and helped him find the way, the proper way to re home that.

Daniel Magler: 00:17:26

That animal.

Daniel Magler: 00:17:27

So it didn't add more feelings of guilt and sadness.

Daniel Magler: 00:17:30

So that's.

Daniel Magler: 00:17:30

And I think that's what critics would be saying, you know, it shouldn't just be a, you know, you pay your 150 bucks, you get your letter that it's all over.

Daniel Magler: 00:17:37

But that's why we want to be all along the way with people throughout their journey, right?

Deanne: 00:17:43

Which is so important.

Deanne: 00:17:44

And that is a great example of, you know, what could be, you know, one thing that could potentially happen.

Deanne: 00:17:50

So that is really, really good to know.

Deanne: 00:17:53

And.

Deanne: 00:17:53

And I think that, you know, circling back to your college initiative, so huge.

Deanne: 00:17:59

I mean, really, really so huge, and just, you know, raising.

Deanne: 00:18:03

Raising awareness and letting people know that that is an option, right?

Deanne: 00:18:11

Because I think, you know, at the base of all of this is there are options, right?

Deanne: 00:18:17

So which also kind of circles me to, you know, your podcast, which is so wonderful.

Deanne: 00:18:23

It's called Not Allowed to Die.

Deanne: 00:18:26

And because.

Deanne: 00:18:28

And I.

Deanne: 00:18:29

I know that you named it that for a number of reasons, but it is this whole, like, there's options.

Deanne: 00:18:34

Like, that's like, kind of inferred in that, right?

Deanne: 00:18:37

And it's.

Deanne: 00:18:38

There are options.

Deanne: 00:18:39

Here's another one.

Deanne: 00:18:40

Pause for Patrick.

Deanne: 00:18:41

Emotional support animals.

Deanne: 00:18:44

Just having someone, you know, somebody in your school, you are a social worker in your school.

Deanne: 00:18:52

You also do all of this work with LGBTQIA kids.

Deanne: 00:18:56

And so it, I think, you know, part of our.

Deanne: 00:18:59

Our work and is just kind of raising that awareness that there are.

Deanne: 00:19:03

There's always an option, right?

Daniel Magler: 00:19:06

Like the.

Daniel Magler: 00:19:06

I.

Daniel Magler: 00:19:07

I'll tell.

Daniel Magler: 00:19:07

I tell all the students in, you know, my LGBTQIA group, you know, about the.

Daniel Magler: 00:19:11

The It Gets Better project where they can Go and watch videos and things, because when you're.

Daniel Magler: 00:19:16

When you're young, it feel.

Daniel Magler: 00:19:18

And if you've been in pain for a long time, it's natural for you to assume that your future will mimic your past and for them to believe.

Daniel Magler: 00:19:25

And what they need to see is adults and older people who are saying, I know what you're experiencing right now, but you got to not trust your gut here.

Daniel Magler: 00:19:33

You have to not trust your experience, and you have to trust me and us, but all these other people have made it.

Daniel Magler: 00:19:39

And so that's what.

Daniel Magler: 00:19:40

That's what we're doing.

Daniel Magler: 00:19:41

You know, a lot of the time is saying, let's.

Daniel Magler: 00:19:43

Let's project forward and try to create a belief for you that your future can be better than where your past was.

Daniel Magler: 00:19:48

And for so many, again of my.

Daniel Magler: 00:19:51

My students who are in that group, their.

Daniel Magler: 00:19:53

Their connection again to other people, to animals, can sometimes help.

Daniel Magler: 00:19:57

An interesting thing that I didn't realize until I started doing the groups is the zodiac, you know, and why.

Daniel Magler: 00:20:04

So when we go around and introduce ourselves in group, kids will say their name, their year, their pronouns, and they.

Daniel Magler: 00:20:11

The kids spontaneously started sharing their zodiac signs.

Deanne: 00:20:14

I love that.

Daniel Magler: 00:20:15

And I didn't realize till there used to be a podcast called Nancy that was.

Daniel Magler: 00:20:21

It was a great podcast of LGBTQ issues.

Daniel Magler: 00:20:24

And it.

Daniel Magler: 00:20:25

It was an NPR podcast and stopped running, but you can go back to the archives of it.

Daniel Magler: 00:20:28

It's fantastic.

Daniel Magler: 00:20:29

But what kind of things were in the queer canon and the zodiac?

Daniel Magler: 00:20:33

You know, I didn't realize part of the reason why it's in sort of the queer canon is because so many kids don't feel at home in the spiritual realm that's set up, you know, by what their parents did.

Daniel Magler: 00:20:43

And so it's giving a different way of whether it's Wiccan or whether it's whichever else to say, I can.

Daniel Magler: 00:20:49

I can explore something different.

Daniel Magler: 00:20:50

And so for me, instead of saying, oh, that's weird, let's not do that, to say, yeah, how can we make this work for you?

Daniel Magler: 00:20:57

Let me find out what it is about, you know, so even if I don't necessarily a big believer in astrology, but I can see how that might be working for you, how that might be helping you, because it's making you feel like you're creating.

Daniel Magler: 00:21:10

As I said, we mentioned, chosen family, well chosen.

Daniel Magler: 00:21:14

Recreating our universe.

Daniel Magler: 00:21:17

And that's so much of the piece with mental health and with awareness is to say instead of just reducing the stigma, to start to reframe it in realizing that every Challenge is an opportunity.

Daniel Magler: 00:21:29

And the things that make us different, if it's anxiety, our anxiety can be my superpower.

Daniel Magler: 00:21:33

Depression can also be my superpower because it can increase my empathy.

Daniel Magler: 00:21:37

And so.

Daniel Magler: 00:21:37

And being different.

Daniel Magler: 00:21:38

And again, it's not an accident that all the greatest artists in history were queer.

Daniel Magler: 00:21:43

You know, it's like, there's something about us that are, you know, like, that there is to embrace that your difference is in this, a different perspective that you're bringing, and how can we bring that to the table?

Daniel Magler: 00:21:53

So that's what.

Daniel Magler: 00:21:54

I'm not allowed to die.

Daniel Magler: 00:21:55

On my podcast, I'm always trying to explore different aspects of mental health and saying, what's something that might have struck me as new, and how can I amplify that out to more people with that idea of hope and that we can take that somewhere different.

Deanne: 00:22:10

Oh, goodness, that is just fantastic.

Deanne: 00:22:15

And I do like that.

Deanne: 00:22:16

And I want everybody to go listen, because mental health is something that we all can learn more about, right?

Deanne: 00:22:25

There's always more to learn and more to be aware of.

Deanne: 00:22:28

And as we grow and learn, then there's that much more that we can understand, right?

Deanne: 00:22:34

And that we can see in our kids or see in our partners or see in people we love, right?

Deanne: 00:22:41

And ourselves and be able to, you know, find the supports that work.

Deanne: 00:22:48

And.

Deanne: 00:22:49

And it is different for every.

Deanne: 00:22:50

You know, for everyone.

Deanne: 00:22:51

And I love that.

Deanne: 00:22:52

That's such a fantastic example about the Zodiac, because I remember when, you know, when Connor initially was like, oh, yeah, I'm totally interested in that.

Deanne: 00:23:02

I was like, huh?

Daniel Magler: 00:23:03

Really?

Deanne: 00:23:04

And I was so.

Deanne: 00:23:05

And I was more just, like, perplexed about it because I was like, well, I mean, okay.

Deanne: 00:23:11

I mean, right?

Deanne: 00:23:13

We're learning all these other new things.

Deanne: 00:23:15

Might as well throw that on the table.

Deanne: 00:23:17

And you know, and quite honestly, like, we had to take our.

Deanne: 00:23:22

You know, how I was traditionally brought up, right?

Deanne: 00:23:25

And how I was programmed, and I had to blow that up and completely come up with something, you know, refigure and reconnect.

Deanne: 00:23:35

But that's mine, right?

Deanne: 00:23:36

Like, that's not Connors.

Deanne: 00:23:37

That's not the rest of my kids to figure out.

Deanne: 00:23:39

Like, each person gets to have their own spiritual connection.

Deanne: 00:23:43

And the way that they want to have a spiritual connection or not have one, that's their right.

Deanne: 00:23:48

That's their prerogative.

Deanne: 00:23:49

And so I think that that's such a.

Deanne: 00:23:53

That is something that so many, you know, are queer kids.

Deanne: 00:23:56

But I think, you know, many young people in general really identify with that.

Deanne: 00:24:02

So bravo for adding that to the.

Deanne: 00:24:06

To the Check, year, pronoun, zodiac.

Deanne: 00:24:09

That's awesome.

Daniel Magler: 00:24:12

But in, in the book, the Courage to Be Disliked, and I know it's a.

Daniel Magler: 00:24:16

It's translation from a Japanese book, but they, they talk about the idea that, you know, Adler says that we need two real things to be happy.

Daniel Magler: 00:24:24

One is a greater overall mission in life, and two is good interpersonal relationships.

Daniel Magler: 00:24:29

And I think whether even no matter if a person is atheist or really part of Christianity or orthodox faith of some sort, it's all really just trying to explain, why are we here and what am I doing?

Daniel Magler: 00:24:41

And for all people, it doesn't matter who you are.

Daniel Magler: 00:24:44

You need that sense of mission and purpose.

Daniel Magler: 00:24:46

And so for me, and again, realizing that through great suffering, we can maybe find what we were meant to do.

Daniel Magler: 00:24:52

And I know for.

Daniel Magler: 00:24:53

Again, for Patrick's family and for whatnot, like that idea of this, they would never choose this, but now they've taken this terrible situation and they've turned it into something.

Daniel Magler: 00:25:03

And for me, and I think most therapists or social workers or people like that, they went through their own struggles or things like that.

Daniel Magler: 00:25:09

And then saying, now how can I channel my pain into a learning that I can share for you, bringing the.

Daniel Magler: 00:25:15

Taking this podcast and Connor's story and saying, how can I make this a mission so that we don't have to have anybody feeling like they're doing it wrong, that they're doing life incorrectly, because there isn't a single right way to do it.

Daniel Magler: 00:25:28

And so that's why for me, and what I tell my own children is we just want.

Daniel Magler: 00:25:34

I want everyone to feel.

Daniel Magler: 00:25:36

I want to try to reduce the suffering on this planet.

Daniel Magler: 00:25:38

No unnecessary suffering.

Daniel Magler: 00:25:39

I think some suffering is necessary to help us become the people we need to be.

Daniel Magler: 00:25:43

But that we don't need to.

Daniel Magler: 00:25:44

Let's.

Daniel Magler: 00:25:45

Let's not take.

Daniel Magler: 00:25:45

You don't get extra points for suffering, so let's not add extra on that.

Daniel Magler: 00:25:49

We don't.

Daniel Magler: 00:25:50

And who is it serving and why am I carrying it along with me?

Daniel Magler: 00:25:53

So let's try to figure out.

Daniel Magler: 00:25:55

So whether, again, it doesn't matter what community you belong to.

Daniel Magler: 00:25:57

We all belong to multiple communities.

Daniel Magler: 00:25:59

My nephew, who came out as gay when he was 13, he's now 16, he actually got kind of a little irritated because we were so enthusiastic for his queerness that we were buying him rainbow this and everything else that.

Daniel Magler: 00:26:10

And he's like, like, this is one aspect of who I am.

Daniel Magler: 00:26:13

This is not the only aspect of who I am.

Daniel Magler: 00:26:16

So sometimes in our enthusiasm for a person, oh, you're into skateboarding.

Daniel Magler: 00:26:20

Everything's about skateboarding.

Daniel Magler: 00:26:20

It's like, no, we all contain multitudes, right?

Daniel Magler: 00:26:24

So letting that say, you know, just.

Daniel Magler: 00:26:26

And then.

Daniel Magler: 00:26:26

And then also our interests or our.

Daniel Magler: 00:26:29

The degree to which we're impacted by a mental health disability or the degree to which where.

Daniel Magler: 00:26:33

Where we're at, lining up in our identity can be fluid and we're all capable of change over time.

Daniel Magler: 00:26:38

And we shouldn't act as if wait.

Daniel Magler: 00:26:41

And so, so many parents are, well, my kid can't possibly be depressed because I saw them laughing with their friends the other day.

Daniel Magler: 00:26:46

And it's.

Daniel Magler: 00:26:47

Well, the same person who's really depressed can also have a positive moment.

Daniel Magler: 00:26:51

Just like generally happy people can cry sometimes.

Daniel Magler: 00:26:54

So allow.

Daniel Magler: 00:26:55

Allowing for everybody to be fluid in all aspects of their life, you know, is something that we all.

Daniel Magler: 00:27:02

Instead of deciding we want though people to fit into certain little boxes.

Daniel Magler: 00:27:06

And.

Daniel Magler: 00:27:07

And sometimes we're afraid with whether it's mental health diagnosis is like, oh, I'm bipolar.

Daniel Magler: 00:27:11

No, you are a person who has bipolar disorder.

Daniel Magler: 00:27:14

You know, a person.

Daniel Magler: 00:27:15

You are not a depressed.

Daniel Magler: 00:27:17

You know, you are a person might be, okay, I am gay or identify as a lesbian or whatnot.

Daniel Magler: 00:27:22

And that's fine.

Daniel Magler: 00:27:22

That's great.

Daniel Magler: 00:27:23

If that's doing you, that's working for you.

Daniel Magler: 00:27:26

Just like I am a Bears fan.

Daniel Magler: 00:27:27

It's not really working for me, but I am still stuck eating one.

Daniel Magler: 00:27:31

But again, that may.

Daniel Magler: 00:27:32

That may be fluid.

Daniel Magler: 00:27:33

My investment in the team may be fluid over time.

Daniel Magler: 00:27:35

So I don't know.

Deanne: 00:27:37

Bears fans are pretty.

Deanne: 00:27:39

Pretty intense and die hard.

Daniel Magler: 00:27:41

I mean, unfortunately, yes.

Daniel Magler: 00:27:43

Whether I like still.

Deanne: 00:27:44

Oh, my goodness.

Deanne: 00:27:46

Well, I think, yes.

Deanne: 00:27:47

I mean, that is such.

Deanne: 00:27:48

Those are really, really great examples.

Deanne: 00:27:51

And we are so complex.

Deanne: 00:27:53

I mean, human.

Deanne: 00:27:54

Humans are complex, right?

Deanne: 00:27:56

And which is one of the most beautiful things.

Deanne: 00:27:59

I think that's part of this.

Deanne: 00:28:02

This growth is embracing that idea.

Deanne: 00:28:08

And as we support our kids and embrace our kids, empower our kids through adolescence, whether it does include coming out as LGBTQIA or having a mental health disorder, helping them realize that I love that your nephew was the one who called you out on it.

Deanne: 00:28:31

Right?

Deanne: 00:28:34

Because that is something that.

Deanne: 00:28:36

And especially at that age.

Deanne: 00:28:37

Holy cow.

Deanne: 00:28:38

I mean, he is a really mature kid.

Deanne: 00:28:40

To be like, hey, this is just part of me.

Deanne: 00:28:42

Like, it is not all of me.

Deanne: 00:28:44

Because I think that is a very.

Deanne: 00:28:46

That's part of the beginning of the coming out process.

Deanne: 00:28:48

Right?

Deanne: 00:28:48

Is where it is your complete identity.

Deanne: 00:28:51

And I think that goes for also, you know, if you are, you know, really understanding, like, beginning to realize, okay, I've been diagnosed with generalized anxiety disorder, for example, I have anxiety that becomes my entire world because I'm trying to figure it out.

Deanne: 00:29:09

I'm trying to figure out how.

Deanne: 00:29:11

What are my coping mechanisms, what are my tools available to me, and then how do I just make that a piece?

Deanne: 00:29:20

It's just a piece.

Deanne: 00:29:21

And as I continue to work with it, it can become my superpower.

Deanne: 00:29:27

And I've watched this with my.

Deanne: 00:29:29

My girls especially, who each struggle with different types of mental health disorders.

Deanne: 00:29:35

And.

Deanne: 00:29:35

And even in the.

Deanne: 00:29:36

Trying to figure out, like, okay, what.

Deanne: 00:29:38

What exactly are you struggling with?

Deanne: 00:29:41

What is the struggle?

Deanne: 00:29:43

What is the disorder?

Deanne: 00:29:44

How do we support.

Deanne: 00:29:45

What do you.

Deanne: 00:29:45

What support do you need here to get you here?

Deanne: 00:29:49

Right?

Deanne: 00:29:50

And then it's going to change again.

Deanne: 00:29:52

Right.

Deanne: 00:29:53

But I do appreciate you really fully illustrating how we are these beautiful, complex beings.

Deanne: 00:30:02

And it's not necessary to cling to that one identity factor.

Deanne: 00:30:07

Just one thing.

Daniel Magler: 00:30:09

Well, that's for so many of the students I work with.

Daniel Magler: 00:30:11

Right now, I'm working with 15 transgender gender non binary students on my caseload and things like, you know, if they're having a really bad day and mental health challenges, but they've also just started testosterone.

Daniel Magler: 00:30:25

They can have this fear of, well, if I let my parents know that I'm struggling, maybe they're going to second guess their decision to help me start taking T.

Daniel Magler: 00:30:35

And, you know, and then also, one of my guys, he.

Daniel Magler: 00:30:38

He also had a really bad ear infection this week.

Daniel Magler: 00:30:40

It was like, okay, just because wouldn't it be great in a scientific study we could say, okay, we only have one variable.

Deanne: 00:30:47

Right?

Daniel Magler: 00:30:48

Unfortunately, life does not work that way.

Daniel Magler: 00:30:50

Like, yes, you have to deal with the ear infection while you're also starting testosterone, and you might also be struggling with your anxiety really badly.

Daniel Magler: 00:30:57

And for this guy, like, where he just.

Daniel Magler: 00:31:00

He just got a new.

Daniel Magler: 00:31:01

His parents got him a new emotional support animal.

Daniel Magler: 00:31:03

His.

Daniel Magler: 00:31:03

His bunny that he had hoped to take to college one day died.

Daniel Magler: 00:31:07

And, and so, you know, then.

Daniel Magler: 00:31:09

Then, okay, well, now let's try a cat.

Daniel Magler: 00:31:11

Well, the first cat that they tried, and this was not.

Daniel Magler: 00:31:14

He didn't do it through Prosser Patrick.

Daniel Magler: 00:31:15

They just did it on their own.

Daniel Magler: 00:31:16

I did encourage them to, but the first cat would just kept biting his head in the middle of the night.

Daniel Magler: 00:31:20

This little kitten, super cute.

Daniel Magler: 00:31:22

But if we're not getting good sleep while we're also having mental health challenges, like, that wasn't working.

Daniel Magler: 00:31:27

And then the grief of, oh, no, I'm a terrible person because I can't.

Daniel Magler: 00:31:31

They ended up swapping out cats at the place where the shelter.

Daniel Magler: 00:31:35

And the shelter was great about it, but all the feeling of, I'm such a failure now.

Daniel Magler: 00:31:38

I'm abandoning this cat and whatnot.

Daniel Magler: 00:31:40

So, again, our lives, as you say, that complexity, but again, for so many, particularly of the LGBTQIA kids, it's like, that's one more aspect.

Daniel Magler: 00:31:51

It is one.

Daniel Magler: 00:31:52

And it's.

Daniel Magler: 00:31:53

But there was a great experience recent.

Daniel Magler: 00:31:55

This last week, we had a student who.

Daniel Magler: 00:31:58

She was recently diagnosed with freshman, but finally recently diagnosed with autism.

Daniel Magler: 00:32:02

And she's like, I've been kind of knowing this about myself for a while.

Daniel Magler: 00:32:05

She has major depressive disorder, anxiety and autism, and her parents are trying to come to terms with that.

Daniel Magler: 00:32:10

And she just also decided to finally come out to her parents this last week.

Daniel Magler: 00:32:16

Yeah.

Daniel Magler: 00:32:16

So parents are kind of reeling with a lot of that, and they've.

Daniel Magler: 00:32:20

All they really wanted was her to have some friends, because making friends has been super difficult.

Daniel Magler: 00:32:26

But the great thing is that now joining that LGBTQ group, those kids have been such a welcoming community, and we have a number of students who are, you know, and again, that particularly our Arrow Ace kids are.

Daniel Magler: 00:32:40

Several of them are on the spectrum.

Daniel Magler: 00:32:42

And so it's like the.

Daniel Magler: 00:32:43

Some kids who are really understanding and open to and supportive of people who are, you know, maybe built a little bit differently and saying like that as opposed to.

Daniel Magler: 00:32:52

So I almost.

Daniel Magler: 00:32:53

I.

Daniel Magler: 00:32:54

We're joking.

Daniel Magler: 00:32:55

Her older sister also, at times struggled with building friendships and whatnot.

Daniel Magler: 00:32:59

We were joking.

Daniel Magler: 00:33:00

Like, yeah, I wish your poor older sister had been queer, because she could have had this community.

Daniel Magler: 00:33:03

She's stuck being heterosexual, so she doesn't have that.

Daniel Magler: 00:33:06

That helps support her.

Daniel Magler: 00:33:08

Just.

Daniel Magler: 00:33:09

But, yeah, so.

Daniel Magler: 00:33:10

So sometimes having all those things at once can feel terrible, but at other times, we can realize that there is a.

Daniel Magler: 00:33:18

For each one of these aspects of who I am, there's a community where I can find connection and strength.

Daniel Magler: 00:33:23

And whenever possible, can we flip that dilemma on its head and start to say no?

Daniel Magler: 00:33:28

Now, that's not to say we can't mourn the sadness of the way we thought things were going to go, that they're not going to go that way.

Daniel Magler: 00:33:35

But at the same time, now, after mourning that for a little bit, now let's say, okay, but how.

Daniel Magler: 00:33:40

Where is the new opportunity that's hiding within this dilemma?

Deanne: 00:33:44

Right.

Deanne: 00:33:45

Well, and I, you know, I think that is a vitally important piece that I do.

Deanne: 00:33:53

I wish I would have thought of this earlier when we were talking, because it is something that I do talk about a lot, which is the morning of the movie reel, and it's not just for parents to do when their child comes out.

Deanne: 00:34:03

It's for any human being to do when their life, you know, changes in some way that they weren't initially.

Deanne: 00:34:10

Which, I mean, let's be.

Deanne: 00:34:12

Let's be honest.

Deanne: 00:34:12

I mean, who's desert to some degree, right?

Deanne: 00:34:16

But I think it is very important to have that mourning period.

Deanne: 00:34:19

And that doesn't mean that you're in denial or that you're angry or that you're.

Deanne: 00:34:23

I mean, you could be, but it just means that's a very important, important piece to allow yourself that sadness, to allow yourself that grief so that you can then move forward.

Deanne: 00:34:34

And so nothing to feel shame, you know, ashamed about or, you know, feel shame about.

Deanne: 00:34:43

So there was a book, too, that popped into my head that I love, love, love.

Deanne: 00:34:50

It's called Differently Wired.

Daniel Magler: 00:34:52

Okay.

Deanne: 00:34:53

And I've had the.

Deanne: 00:34:54

Actually, the author on.

Deanne: 00:34:56

She was my book coach as well, and she wrote this beautiful book, and her.

Deanne: 00:35:01

Her child is on the spectrum, is.

Deanne: 00:35:04

Is not lgbtqia, but the.

Deanne: 00:35:06

This book is.

Deanne: 00:35:08

I recommend it to everybody who has a kid who's differently wired because it's really just a lovely way not only to realize the support pieces, but to really understand kind of the scientific side.

Deanne: 00:35:23

Right.

Deanne: 00:35:24

And just to understand some of these, you know, chemical things that are going on and all of this type of stuff.

Deanne: 00:35:29

So that's my right.

Daniel Magler: 00:35:31

I actually literally wrote that one down.

Deanne: 00:35:33

So we're taking turns here.

Deanne: 00:35:36

I have, like, a ton of things.

Deanne: 00:35:37

I'm like, oh, that's a good one.

Deanne: 00:35:38

Oh, I need to recommend that.

Deanne: 00:35:40

That's great.

Deanne: 00:35:41

Well, I want to be respectful of your time, and I did want to ask just, you know, as for your recommendations, because I know you are a huge podcast listener and just working with so closely with LGBTQIA teenagers first, podcast recommendations second.

Deanne: 00:36:03

Any advice that you would give to parents?

Daniel Magler: 00:36:09

Well, so I'll start with yes.

Daniel Magler: 00:36:10

I mean, I could go on forever about podcasts.

Daniel Magler: 00:36:12

I love.

Daniel Magler: 00:36:13

I think for anything by Brene Brown is you're always going to be going the right direction.

Daniel Magler: 00:36:17

So whether it's unlocking us or dare to lead, understanding the science behind vulnerability, shame, and whatnot is great.

Daniel Magler: 00:36:24

The Happiness Lab is with Lori Santos really beneficial.

Daniel Magler: 00:36:29

I, again, for some people, you and I have talked.

Daniel Magler: 00:36:33

We're both fans of Dan Savage, but for some people, it's a lot.

Daniel Magler: 00:36:36

But I do think, you know, he will make you think.

Daniel Magler: 00:36:40

And so the Savage Love Podcast is going to push your boundaries and think about things that you have never occurred to you before.

Daniel Magler: 00:36:46

And so the great Thing is, he doesn't expect listeners to always agree with him.

Daniel Magler: 00:36:51

And he has people who, you know, I love how he has people come on and take him to task about different things.

Daniel Magler: 00:36:56

But so those are just some that I start with.

Daniel Magler: 00:36:58

Nico Barraza is another podcaster who, gosh, what's the blank on the name of his podcast?

Daniel Magler: 00:37:05

I'll get it to you.

Daniel Magler: 00:37:07

But just like again, oh, starve the ego, feed the soul.

Daniel Magler: 00:37:11

And that one was one that was.

Daniel Magler: 00:37:13

And recommended to me by some of my students.

Daniel Magler: 00:37:17

So that, like, just again, I always love the ones that are recommended to me by my clients or whatnot because, oh, they must be on to something there.

Deanne: 00:37:23

Yes, exactly.

Deanne: 00:37:25

Well, I mean, what better way to understand if we're listening to what our, our kids are listening to, right?

Deanne: 00:37:30

I mean, that is a good way to understand, just another little piece of understanding and, and, you know, learning.

Deanne: 00:37:36

So I love that.

Deanne: 00:37:38

And then, you know, working with.

Deanne: 00:37:40

You've already shared so much about working with things that you learn from the kids and the kids share with you.

Deanne: 00:37:47

But what are just some really key takeaways for parents who either their child has just come out to them or they're going into the holidays?

Deanne: 00:37:58

What are some things that the kids really want their parents to know?

Daniel Magler: 00:38:05

Well, again, first of all, and that to listen to your kids and to speak with them directly about how relationships and to make your kid feel like they are the priority over any other of these external relationships.

Daniel Magler: 00:38:18

I know one of my clients, his younger sibling came out as trans and just decided that didn't want to have, didn't want to do holidays with some other parts of the family who had shown they'd never said anything overtly homophobic.

Daniel Magler: 00:38:31

But they have been really judgmental about other racial groups and things like that.

Daniel Magler: 00:38:36

And this younger sibling, and the sibling is gender non binary.

Daniel Magler: 00:38:40

And so saying like, I don't want to.

Daniel Magler: 00:38:42

You can tell them I came out or whatnot, but I don't want to interact with these people because they've made me feel just generally unsafe.

Daniel Magler: 00:38:49

And as a family, just honoring that and not saying, well, we need to suck it up for grandma or do anything else like that.

Daniel Magler: 00:38:55

I do think grandmas get underrated and what they can handle.

Daniel Magler: 00:38:59

I mean, when we think about, if we just do some math, a lot of grandmas were like Woodstock level age, you know, so they were probably doing some other things in their youth.

Daniel Magler: 00:39:06

So I think we should give them a little bit more credit and stop trying to protect everyone.

Daniel Magler: 00:39:10

But mainly taking things at the pace of the kids and honoring that and making sure that if they, if that kid needs to not go to certain other family members homes, that okay, we can make another plan, we can make things smaller because we want to make you feel like you are not a burden, an add on and that anybody who doesn't accept these things about you is, you know, we're not going to prioritize their feelings over yours is that really, really hurts for a lot of the kids.

Daniel Magler: 00:39:37

So that's something I think just having those frank discussions and saying, and it's okay to not know the answer.

Daniel Magler: 00:39:43

It's okay to say, hey, we're still working through this.

Daniel Magler: 00:39:45

Kids are.

Daniel Magler: 00:39:46

Teachers are all the time talking to me about, oh no, I'm afraid I'm going to mess up so and so's pronouns or I did it.

Daniel Magler: 00:39:52

The kids are always incredibly forgiving if they feel like your heart is in the right place and you're trying.

Daniel Magler: 00:39:57

And so as long as you are saying, hey, here's where I'm at right now and let me think about.

Daniel Magler: 00:40:02

You might have to give me some time to think about how I need to handle this conversation, this other thing.

Daniel Magler: 00:40:07

But at the end of the day, the most important thing to me is that you feel supported.

Daniel Magler: 00:40:12

Then kids are, they're elated.

Daniel Magler: 00:40:14

But it's when they feel like.

Daniel Magler: 00:40:16

It's when they feel like they are something that may be an object of shame that needs to be hidden away in some direction that, that causes lasting scars and feelings of embarrassment and shame.

Daniel Magler: 00:40:28

So these kids are, they've been carrying so much of this for so long and that's what we, we often forget when we're saying, hey, are you sure this, that by the time a kid tells a parent or any other family member that they think they might be queer, Trust me, they've been wrestling with it.

Daniel Magler: 00:40:43

But, and the vast majority of them, part of the queer experience generally is an ongoing questioning.

Daniel Magler: 00:40:50

And even in the queer community, things like, and I know you talked about on your podcast about bisexuality or more and more kids identifying as being pansexual because, you know, again, it's something that it's, it's a pro.

Daniel Magler: 00:41:01

There's nothing wrong with continuing to be fluid and figure things out and to have things change.

Daniel Magler: 00:41:07

So it doesn't mean that the person wasn't sure and it doesn't mean any damage will occur.

Daniel Magler: 00:41:11

And I think that's.

Daniel Magler: 00:41:11

Parents have this fear.

Daniel Magler: 00:41:12

It's like they're nervous as if their kid was getting a tattoo on their forehead of like, okay, I am this.

Daniel Magler: 00:41:18

And it's like, no, we don't.

Daniel Magler: 00:41:19

We don't have to lock in.

Daniel Magler: 00:41:20

It's okay to just one day at a time.

Daniel Magler: 00:41:23

So that's what I guess I would advise them.

Deanne: 00:41:26

Perfect.

Deanne: 00:41:27

I could not have said it any better.

Deanne: 00:41:28

It's beautiful.

Deanne: 00:41:29

Thank you.

Deanne: 00:41:30

And so important.

Deanne: 00:41:31

And so, you know, it's part of that shifting from the focus on the external and the fear.

Deanne: 00:41:40

And really, once you shift that and kind of let that go and have your focus be your kid, it makes things so much easier and really takes the anxiety level down.

Deanne: 00:41:53

So.

Deanne: 00:41:54

Great.

Deanne: 00:41:55

Well, thank you.

Deanne: 00:41:56

Thank you so much for being on my show.

Deanne: 00:42:00

I appreciate it and I'm so, so.

Deanne: 00:42:02

I'm just really thrilled that everyone has gotten to hear all of this.

Deanne: 00:42:05

This is just a fantastic amount of information and.

Deanne: 00:42:10

And so different and needed.

Deanne: 00:42:12

So thank you.

Deanne: 00:42:13

Thank you for sharing and for everything that you do every single day.

Daniel Magler: 00:42:18

Well, thank you for the opportunity to come and spread the word, particularly about Pause or Patrick.

Daniel Magler: 00:42:22

And if people want to, they should, please go to the website@paws for patrick.org I used to say pastorpatrick.org but then somebody made it sound like I was.

Daniel Magler: 00:42:32

They thought I was saying orgy, which would be more of a Dan Savage thing.

Daniel Magler: 00:42:35

So, anyway, but so it's posturepatrick.org if you think that that might help you.

Daniel Magler: 00:42:40

And yeah, thank you.

Deanne: 00:42:41

We'll never forget that now.

Daniel Magler: 00:42:45

So thank you, though, for letting me come on and talk about that.

Daniel Magler: 00:42:47

I really appreciate it.

Deanne: 00:42:48

Of course.

Deanne: 00:42:48

And then really quickly again, your podcast, if you.

Daniel Magler: 00:42:51

My podcast is not allowed to die, and it's on Apple podcast and Spotify.

Daniel Magler: 00:42:56

You can find it at either of those.

Deanne: 00:42:58

Awesome.

Deanne: 00:42:58

All right, well, this will all be in the show notes as well, so you can click through and check it all out.

Deanne: 00:43:04

So, Dan, thank you so much and have a great, great rest of your weekend.

Daniel Magler: 00:43:09

You too.

Heather Hester: 00:43:11

Thanks so much for joining me today.

Heather Hester: 00:43:14

If you enjoyed today's episode, I would be so grateful for a rating or a review.

Heather Hester: 00:43:21

Click on the link in the show notes or go to my website, chrysalismama.com to stay up to date on my latest resources as well as to learn how you can work with me.

Heather Hester: 00:43:34

Please share this podcast with anyone who needs to know that they are not alone.

Heather Hester: 00:43:39

And remember to just breathe until.

Heather Hester: 00:43:44

Till next time.