Episode 126
Unlocking the Power of Your Nervous System: A Journey with Kelly Luback
Join us in this enlightening episode of Just Breathe as we navigate the intricacies of the human nervous system and its profound impact on our overall well-being. I'm thrilled to introduce Kelly Luback, an expert in nervous system health and a dear friend who has profoundly influenced my own journey of healing and internal work. Kelly's extensive experience in coaching, shamanic healing, yoga, and mindfulness provides a rich backdrop as we explore how our brain, spinal cord, and autonomic functions govern essential bodily processes such as breathing, digestion, and hormone production.
Listen in as we unravel the delicate balance between the activating sympathetic nervous system, which can manifest as anxiety, and the calming parasympathetic nervous system, responsible for rest and digestion. We discuss the common disconnection many of us feel from our nervous system signals due to overwhelming sensations and how the increased awareness post-COVID has highlighted the need for maintaining flexibility within these states. Kelly shares practical insights and evidence-based techniques to support and calm our nervous system, including a simple method of crisscrossing arms and stroking from shoulders to elbows, beneficial for both adults and children.
Finally, we explore the intersection of our physical bodies and mental states, emphasizing the importance of integrating both to achieve a sense of calm and clarity. Through real-life examples, such as the responses of parents of LGBTQ children and the dynamics at a recent family graduation party, we highlight the importance of recognizing and validating various nervous system responses. This episode celebrates personal growth and resilience, encouraging open conversations and normalizing our natural reactions to stress.
Resources Mentioned:
Kelly Lubeck's website - https://www.kellylubeck.com/
Join the Parenting with Pride Book Club - https://chrysalismama.com/bookclub
Don't forget to grab your copy of Heather's new book, Parenting with Pride. Available Now! https://chrysalismama.com/book
About our Guest:
Kelly Lubeck, MPH, is passionate about changing the world for the better, through individual, group and community-level healing programs that inspire health, embodied leadership, and heightened capacity for change. Kelly helps women leaders stay grounded and centered in their changemaking, so they can deliver and lead impactful work, enjoy meaningful relationships and deep connection with their purpose, without sacrificing body, mind and spirit to their mission. Kelly’s work happens at the intersection of deep and soulful coaching, science of the nervous system, shamanic healing, yoga, mindfulness and 25 years of experience leading service-based programs around the world.
Connect with Heather:
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Work with Heather one-on-one or bring her into your organization to speak or run a workshop!
Please subscribe to, rate, and review Just Breathe. And, as always, please share with anyone who needs to know they are not alone!
Email: hh@chrysalismama.com
Transcript
Welcome back my friends.
Heather:If this is your first time here, I am delighted you found Just Breathe.
Heather:We talk all things loving, raising and empowering LGBTQ people, but at the core it is a space for you to take a breath, quiet all of the noise around you and just be before we get into today's episode, I want to encourage you to sign up for my inaugural Parenting with Pride Book Club.
Heather:Starting next Tuesday, July 9th, we will meet on Zoom for one hour a week for four weeks to discuss each of the four pillars.
Heather:Embrace, educate and unlearn bias, Empower and love.
Heather:Bring your thoughts and questions or just sit quietly and know you're surrounded by affirming people.
Heather:The link to register is in the show notes.
Heather:You can also sign up via my website chrysalismama.com this may be the best $97 you spend all year.
Heather:Today's guest is someone I have worked with one on one, who has helped me with a ton of internal work and healing and who I now consider a dear friend.
Heather:Kelly Luback is passionate about changing the world for the better through individual, group and community level healing programs that inspire health, embodied leadership and heightened capacity for change.
Heather:Kelly helps women leaders stay grounded and centered in their change making so they can deliver and lead impactful work, enjoy meaningful relationships and deep connection with their purpose without sacrificing body, mind and spirit to their mission.
Heather:Kelly's work happens at the intersection of deep and soulful coaching, science of the nervous system, shamanic healing, yoga, mindfulness and 25 years of experience leading service based programs around the world.
Heather:Today's conversation is the first of several that Kelly and I will have and I am so happy she is here to share her wisdom with us.
Kelly:Welcome Kelly.
Kelly:I am so happy that you are here today and I'm really, really excited to have this conversation about the nervous system which I think when we first hear those words we're not really sure what that means to take care of our nervous system, to pay attention to what our nervous system is telling us.
Kelly:And you, through so much experience and study have become, I mean the most brilliant expert on this subject that I have ever encountered.
Kelly:So I have, you know, like I said earlier in the introduction, I have worked with Kelly one on one for almost a year and she is also a very dear friend of mine.
Kelly:So I am delighted, delighted for you all to learn a little bit from Kelly today.
Kelly:So thank you for being here, thank.
Kelly Luback:You so much for having me and I'm so excited to have this conversation with you and I really appreciate the shout out on being a brilliant expert.
Kelly Luback:And I come very humbly.
Kelly Luback:But yes, being a complete nervous system nerd and excited to just dive in deeper, Both through my own experience and experience, Working with clients and students and just exploring the study of it.
Kelly Luback:Cause it is so foundational to everything that we live and experience.
Kelly:It's amazing.
Kelly:So I wonder if you would take just like 60 seconds and give a quick overview of how you.
Kelly:Because we often when things are going on in our lives and we're struggling for whatever reason, we're like trying to figure it out, and we're like picking and just grasping at different things.
Kelly:And it took a lot of that for you, for you to finally realize, oh my gosh, this is my nervous system.
Kelly:Can you talk just a little bit about that?
Kelly Luback:Yeah.
Kelly Luback:One of my favorite ways to explain the work that we do around the nervous system is to understand that we have a system within our bodies.
Kelly Luback:Our brain, our spinal cord, the peripheral system, our autonomic nervous system, which is all the automatic functions.
Kelly Luback:Like our nervous system is responsible for everything.
Kelly Luback:Our, our breathing, our digestion, our heart rate, our hormonal production or lack of production, our like, all of the different basic functions that we don't have to think about.
Kelly Luback:Wound healing, healing hormones, anti aging hormones, all of these things are influenced by the nervous system.
Kelly Luback:The way that I really like to think about it though, is it's basically the.
Kelly Luback:The tracker of all of our lived experience.
Kelly Luback:So whatever it is that we've lived from early childhood into adulthood and an older age is recorded in this system.
Kelly Luback:And so we begin to very early on track patterns that speak to us of what is safe and what is not safe.
Kelly Luback:And so with these patterns that are learned through our lived experience, what we observe, what we walk through, what we live, how we relate, we learn the rules in the system for what is safe and not safe.
Kelly Luback:And that basically creates patterns within us that then determine the ways that we engage in the world or the ways that we disengage from the world.
Kelly Luback:And so it's so foundational.
Kelly Luback:And I'm happy to go into this more as we speak.
Kelly Luback:But for me, that's like really the most essential piece is our systems are out looking at how do we stay in survival and how do we advance the species within the human that we are by keeping us safe.
Kelly Luback:And we have the threat response and the threat detection up all the time.
Kelly Luback:And we can learn to work with that in really effective ways that can help us learn to be in the world and thrive in the world in ways that are different than we might have experienced through our own lived experience, if that makes sense.
Kelly:It does.
Kelly:It's a lot.
Kelly:I think one of the most fascinating things for me as I started this work with you and I.
Kelly:My guess is that this is true for so many people is that at some point, all of the messaging that we've just been collecting our whole lives and our nervous system at.
Kelly:At a certain point, we start to not pay attention anymore to the messaging, to the information that our nervous system is giving us for various reasons.
Kelly:It's too overwhelming, it's too painful, it's too.
Kelly:We don't understand it and we disengage, we disconnect from that.
Kelly:And I know that I came to you at a point where I was like, I have no idea.
Kelly:Like, I could say, I think my nervous system is fried.
Kelly:I feel this way, but I couldn't tell you why and what was going on and where and where that came from.
Kelly:And so I'm wondering if you could just talk a little bit first, validate that for everybody.
Kelly:Because that is such, I think, a very common experience for so many of us.
Kelly:So when you're saying like, these things are automatic, these things are.
Kelly:This over here on an intellectual level, we understand that.
Kelly Luback:Yeah.
Kelly:But if we just.
Kelly:Are you ask us right now to sit here and feel that.
Kelly:I would think that a lot of people are like, I can't.
Kelly Luback:Yes, yes, totally.
Kelly Luback:Okay.
Kelly Luback:There's so many pieces in here to unpack.
Kelly:12 questions there for you.
Kelly Luback:That's so great.
Kelly Luback:And I think, and what I do want to acknowledge too, is that I.
Kelly Luback:I feel like in the world now, especially post Covid, and this surge during COVID is just this, this sort of more popularized knowing of the nervous system or speaking about the nervous system and really normalizing anxiety, mood disorders, you know, depression, the ups and downs, feeling, the fight or flight is one that people use all the time.
Kelly Luback:Right.
Kelly Luback:I feel like the references to the nervous system became much more widely understood.
Kelly Luback:And so there's a lot more that's being spoken about it in the world.
Kelly Luback:And with that, I think there's a lot of disinformation as.
Kelly Luback:Or misinformation and confusion around it.
Kelly Luback:And so what.
Kelly Luback:What I think is really important to understand is we can have feelings of heightened sensation, which might feel like anxiety or nervousness or, you know, if I'm going to go give a talk or you're going to go speak on your amazing new.
Kelly Luback:You know, you go out there, you're going to engage a part of the nervous system which is very activating.
Kelly Luback:So you are on.
Kelly Luback:And that is normal for your nervous system to be activated and on.
Kelly Luback:And it can get a little extra activated and that can look like anxiety.
Kelly Luback:And then we can have the de escalating part of the nervous system.
Kelly Luback:We call it the parasympathetic nervous system, which is the slowing things down.
Kelly Luback:And it's the rest and digest part.
Kelly Luback:It's the part that allows you to get to sleep at night or to digest your food well, or to slow down and be able to snuggle up with your kid and connect with them or have a deep and meaningful conversation with someone you care about.
Kelly Luback:That's also the nervous system.
Kelly Luback:And then there are times when, with the patterns that have been established.
Kelly Luback:So let's just say for example, that, you know, you grew up in a household where things were high intensity or high pressure and there was always like you had to be on, you had to perform, you had to say yes and you had to do good.
Kelly Luback:And all the things so many of us have lived this experience.
Kelly Luback:And so if that's the case, you might tend towards a more activated nervous system that leans more towards what looks like what we know as anxiety.
Kelly Luback:And so it's like this always being on, always being maybe a little on the verge of agitation or always needing to go, go, go and do, do, do.
Kelly Luback:So that's, that's nervous system.
Kelly Luback:And then sometimes what happens is when people have been going and sort of stuck in a pattern for so long that it's like the switch gets stuck so the on switch is on and you can't turn it off.
Kelly Luback:So if you're in a more activated state, that could look like, oh, I can't wind down, I can't get to sleep, or something's going on with my kid and I'm really worried and I can't turn off the mind.
Kelly Luback:It just feels like those wheels are turning all the time.
Kelly Luback:And, and that is, that's because this pattern has just gotten in, in a, in a stuck way.
Kelly Luback:And what.
Kelly Luback:And then let's just take the flip of that, which is we also have the slowing down nervous system, which can be, you know, the.
Kelly Luback:I'm holding my newborn baby and we're so connected and it's beautiful.
Kelly Luback:Or I've, you know, hugging my partner or my teen and we're feeling really connected.
Kelly Luback:That's, that's like the slowing down nervous system.
Kelly Luback:The other part of that, like further along the continuum is the freeze part where we get frozen or we get stuck in a place of slowed Down, So it might look like I can't get off the couch.
Kelly Luback:My, my brain isn't just processing thoughts well, or I really need to, I need to get my book out in the world, or I need to help my kid do X, Y and Z thing.
Kelly Luback:But I'm actually just stuck.
Kelly Luback:Like I'm frozen.
Kelly Luback:I can't, I can't move forward.
Kelly Luback:And in many cases that can look like, you know, sitting on the couch, chilling out with Netflix and a bowl of ice cream or chips.
Kelly Luback:And it's, it's more of the kind of numbing behavior and it's very decelerated.
Kelly Luback:Either one of those.
Kelly Luback:To be stuck in them is problematic because one, we're not meant to be stuck in them.
Kelly Luback:And we have a biology that's built to be able to move between the more activated and the more slowed down parts of the nervous system.
Kelly Luback:So I want, I want to share an analogy that I find to be really helpful, but I just want to ask, does that make sense or do you have questions or do you want to offer any clarification?
Kelly Luback:I'm trying to.
Kelly:No, I think that makes a ton of sense and I think is a really, really great overview.
Kelly:And I do want to hear your analogy.
Kelly:And then I have one question that, or a couple questions after that because I'd like to touch on the freeze and also just kind of specific examples of, you know, where people might be and what that might look like.
Kelly:So it like relates back so we.
Kelly Luback:Can connect these totally to connect the dots to real life experience, which is the most important reason to learn this.
Kelly Luback:Okay, so what I.
Kelly Luback:One analogy I'd love to offer is the river analogy.
Kelly Luback:And so if we think of a flowing river as our nervous system and our body and our resilience, and then if we think of rocks in the river, the, you know, the rocks that might jut up in a river or where you have rapids, those are like the traumas, those are triggers.
Kelly Luback:They are stressors.
Kelly Luback:They're the.
Kelly Luback:All the weights that we're carrying, they change the flow of the river, right?
Kelly Luback:So the more rocks we have, the rougher the river is going to be.
Kelly Luback:It's just going to flow more rapidly and it's going to be a rougher ride.
Kelly Luback:The fewer rocks we have, the easier the water can flow.
Kelly Luback:And so what, what we're aiming for is flow.
Kelly Luback:What we want is to be able to move between.
Kelly Luback:And I, I touched on just some really basic parts of the nervous system.
Kelly Luback:Right.
Kelly Luback:Like, we can nerd out on this for hours, but for the Basics, we want to move between the more accelerated state and the more sort of modified decelerated state.
Kelly Luback:And then, you know, being able to, like, really close down for the day and, you know, sleep, digest, do the healing repair that happens during sleep time.
Kelly Luback:And then there's freeze, which is.
Kelly Luback:Has its own function as well.
Kelly Luback:But we want to be able to move easefully between these states.
Kelly Luback:So when I think of the river analogy, it's like we want flow, and that flow is showing us we can move between those states.
Kelly Luback:So there's two ways that we can create more flow.
Kelly Luback:We can expand the river so we can, like, you know, dig deeper and dig out to the edges so there's more flow in the.
Kelly Luback:In the water, or dig deeper in the water and, you know, pull up the ground there.
Kelly Luback:Or we can take out the rocks.
Kelly Luback:So there's different ways to approach this.
Kelly Luback:So taking out the rocks looks like reducing stressors, doing deeper healing on some of the old, you know, trauma pieces.
Kelly Luback:And it doesn't have to be what I think of as big T trauma.
Kelly Luback:These can be little T traumas that result in freeze, which we're going to talk about in a moment.
Kelly Luback:And.
Kelly Luback:And.
Kelly Luback:And just these old patterns.
Kelly Luback:So clearing of these old ways, but the widening and deepening of the river is creating more spaciousness by doing things that grow our resilience.
Kelly Luback:So those are different tools and ways that we can work with our bodies and our nervous systems to create more flow by building more resilience to whatever the rocks are, right, Whatever rocks show up and impact the flow of the river.
Kelly Luback:Does that make sense?
Kelly:It does.
Kelly:I love that.
Kelly:What might a couple examples of tools be?
Kelly Luback:Okay, so there's so many beautiful tools for working with the nervous system, and one of them is my favorite.
Kelly Luback:Now, we're not on video, but I'm going to describe this, and it's one that I love to give to people.
Kelly Luback:It's the.
Kelly Luback:It's the most effective, easiest, simplest thing that we can do.
Kelly Luback:So let's just say, like, you're feeling really stressed out, and we've all had this experience.
Kelly Luback:I know we've talked through this one before.
Kelly:This is one of my favorites, y'all.
Kelly:I love this so much.
Kelly:So listen carefully.
Kelly:It works.
Kelly Luback:So you're gonna take your right hand, put it to your left shoulder, left hand to your right shoulder.
Kelly Luback:So you're just crisscrossing.
Kelly Luback:And then you are stroking from your shoulders down to your elbows.
Kelly Luback:We're doing this with you.
Kelly Luback:So just go ahead, reach your arms across, crossing over your arms Opposite hand to the shoulder, opposite shoulder.
Kelly Luback:And then you're just stroking down shoulder to elbow, gentle stroking.
Kelly Luback:We're going to keep doing this while I talk and explain what's happening here.
Kelly Luback:Now this is an evidence based tool which is scientifically proven to engage your parasympathetic nervous system that slowing down, rest and digest nervous system.
Kelly Luback:Keep stroking down your arms.
Kelly Luback:Please stay with us.
Kelly Luback:So I want you to keep doing this and just notice what starts to happen in your body.
Kelly Luback:So this is, this is one tool that literally you could do this for 30 seconds, 60 seconds, it will change your state.
Kelly Luback:It's a really beautiful one to do with kids as well.
Kelly Luback:It's such.
Kelly Luback:It's like giving yourself this warm hug.
Kelly Luback:We're doing lots of good things with the brain and the body here.
Kelly Luback:But what's most important to know is it helps to bring on calm.
Kelly Luback:It just helps to raise the capacity of your parasympathetic nervous system.
Kelly Luback:So keep on doing that as long as you like.
Kelly Luback:But what I really want, what's really important here, is for you to notice what changes as you do it.
Kelly Luback:So this is one.
Kelly Luback:I give this tool all the time on the street, with clients, with family, with myself, with my kiddo.
Kelly Luback:It's such a good and beautiful soothing tool.
Kelly Luback:And of course for your audience, Heather, when there's like big stressors or things going down in the family, or you're worrying about your kid or just confused about what's happening with your kid, this can be such a great one.
Kelly Luback:It's so simple.
Kelly Luback:It costs Nothing.
Kelly Luback:It takes 30 seconds and it can completely shift how you feel.
Kelly Luback:And if you want to offer it to your kid as well, can totally shift how they feel.
Kelly:Yes.
Kelly Luback:All right, so how do you feel with that one?
Kelly:You know, this is one of my favorites.
Kelly:I mean, I wish I would have had this tool seven years ago.
Kelly:I mean, I wish I would have had this tool 50 years ago.
Kelly:But I, it is, it works so well and so fast.
Kelly Luback:Yes.
Kelly:I mean, the first time you told me that, I was like, oh, come on.
Kelly Luback:I know it sounds so cheesy and silly, right?
Kelly:And then I did it.
Kelly:I was like, oh my gosh.
Kelly:Yes.
Kelly:I mean, you could do it while sitting at a stoplight.
Kelly:You can do it, you know, excuse yourself for 60 seconds.
Kelly:If you're in the middle of something and you just need a minute, need a minute.
Kelly:I mean, this plays into the whole, take a breath, right?
Kelly:Take a pause, take those things and do this.
Kelly:And you are in a completely different state.
Kelly:And not only does it calm your physical body?
Kelly:But also, of course, here's.
Kelly:I mean, this, I think, is probably for our next conversation that we have, but the fact that our brain is attached to our body, and I know that sounds like such a silly statement, but just so many of us disconnect those things.
Kelly Luback:So we Heads.
Kelly:Because it's easier to intellectualize everything and not feel it.
Kelly Luback:Yes.
Kelly:Too hard to feel it.
Kelly:And this helps reconnect.
Kelly:I think for me, this was one of the biggest tools of, like, reconnecting and starting to feel that, like, not only was my body calm, my brain was calm, and I could, like, think and I could make a decision or.
Kelly:Or have a conversation with clarity.
Kelly:And I mean, truly, truly such a game changer.
Kelly Luback:It is such a game changer.
Kelly Luback:And I think what you just said about us living disconnected from our bodies is really essential, Heather, because it is like we have.
Kelly Luback:We have been taught to disconnect from our bodies and to access wisdom only from the neck up.
Kelly Luback:But the truth is we have this whole.
Kelly Luback:They speak of bodies of wisdom.
Kelly Luback:Like, we have a body of wisdom that we can connect to, that can support us.
Kelly Luback:There's.
Kelly Luback:I mean, this is a whole other conversation, but we, you know, we have these bodies that we can check into for information, to access our intuition, to access, access, you know, next best steps to help us make decisions that are.
Kelly Luback:That are more in, you know, in service to us or our families or kiddos.
Kelly Luback:And.
Kelly Luback:And we have been taught to disengage the body.
Kelly Luback:So much of what I teach, I mean, the reason I'm in love with teaching the nervous system, which is not the only piece I teach, but it's a huge foundational piece, is that when we learn to get in connection with our bodies and our nervous systems, everything can change.
Kelly Luback:And when I say everything, I mean your love, relationships, your relationship with your kids, the way that you express in the world, the way you use your voice for change for good, you know, if you have a mission to write a book, you've just.
Kelly Luback:I'm just bringing up your book again, shamelessly promoting you.
Kelly Luback:You have.
Kelly Luback:You have a mission to put out in the world, then to be able to bring your voice to that in a way that really supports change is essential.
Kelly Luback:Or to.
Kelly Luback:Even if it's just, you know, standing up for your kid and working with a medical system or with the school system or, you know, navigating relationships, there's so many different ways that we express and engage in the world.
Kelly Luback:And when we are connected with our bodies and nervous systems, we can do that in a whole different level.
Kelly Luback:It's really, really powerful.
Kelly Luback:It is, it's.
Kelly:It is really extraordinary.
Kelly Luback:I know you said that you want to talk some examples.
Kelly:Yes, I was just going to say, you know, thinking about everybody who's listening, and a lot of, A lot of people are somewhere on the journey of their kiddo coming out, and that can bring up lots of nervous system dysregulation and feelings and disconnection and all of these things, even for those who are completely affirming, it can still bring up feelings of uncertainty and fear.
Kelly:And so I'm wondering if.
Kelly:And so I think a lot of that points to freeze, which is what I kind of brought up before, because that's an easy.
Kelly:For multiple reason that.
Kelly:That's an easy place to get to.
Kelly:So I'm wondering if you could talk about that a little bit just in relation to, you know, kind of specifically where our listeners are.
Kelly Luback:Absolutely.
Kelly Luback:So, so I, I know we love the freeze.
Kelly Luback:The freeze work, and I think we should go deeper in another.
Kelly Luback:Another moment on it, but I do want to speak to how it might show up for your listeners, for all of us as parents, but especially for those who are navigating, you know, new terrain with their kiddos.
Kelly Luback:I think, you know, one piece that comes up just to, you know, speak to the really hard part is how do we keep our kids safe?
Kelly Luback:Right.
Kelly Luback:I think that's a huge piece for parents is how do we keep our kids safe in a, in a world that's so biased and so, so harshly oriented towards our kids who are in the LGBTQ world?
Kelly Luback:And so that can be really activating.
Kelly Luback:And actually, I want to speak to both frees, but also the other end of it, because it can lead us into freeze, where we're just, you know, shut down or feeling really low about it, or we can't take action or, you know, we're holding, even holding our kid back because we're worried for them.
Kelly Luback:And it can look really activating on the other end of the spectrum as well, right?
Kelly Luback:Where just the anxiety and, like, can't turn the mind off and so worried about my kid and, and, and how am I going to keep them safe?
Kelly Luback:And all the things that, you know, we may have had raising my hand here may have had very early on in their, in their lives and, and then it just gets activated again, you know, as they, as they come out and we want to, we want to keep them safe again, but it's like a whole, in a whole different way.
Kelly Luback:Right.
Kelly Luback:So I think you know, that's one way that this can come out.
Kelly Luback:I think sometimes what can happen, too, is.
Kelly Luback:And this, you know, even for people who consider themselves allies or feel really woke or, you know, maybe are LGBTQ themselves or have, you know, been in that world, it can.
Kelly Luback:It can still bring up things.
Kelly Luback:I.
Kelly Luback:I have a dear, dear friend with kids who have come out recently, and she was just saying, like, my politics are one thing, but then when it's in my kids, it's like it's another.
Kelly Luback:And it's.
Kelly Luback:And.
Kelly Luback:And she's struggling.
Kelly Luback:She's like, I just want to keep them safe.
Kelly Luback:And.
Kelly Luback:And sometimes what that can look like is actually not so much the flight or anxiety or the freeze, but actually the fight.
Kelly Luback:And so it can also look like going, you know, going into battle with your kid.
Kelly Luback:Okay.
Kelly Luback:And let's also say the teen years are their own special.
Kelly Luback:Their own special.
Kelly:They are not for the faint of heart.
Kelly Luback:No, they are not.
Kelly Luback:And we are, like, called to resilience.
Kelly Luback:This is, like, where you really want to work on widening and deepening your river.
Kelly Luback:And.
Kelly Luback:And with that, sometimes even in our desire to be protective or to be supportive, it can look like, you know, we engage in the fight whether the fight is coming to us or we're bringing the fight.
Kelly Luback:And so it can look like, you know, really sparked emotion or getting angry or.
Kelly Luback:Or even kind of.
Kelly Luback:Let's.
Kelly Luback:I'm trying to think, like, you know, exploding on.
Kelly Luback:On things that seem like nothing things, but what's actually happening is you're feeling upset and scared, so you're picking a fight around something that is actually insignificant, but it's the safe place to pick a fight, right?
Kelly Luback:And it might look like it's with your kids, it might look like it's with your partner.
Kelly Luback:Might look like, you know, with your mother.
Kelly Luback:So there's all sorts of ways that this can show up.
Kelly Luback:And.
Kelly Luback:And then there's the part, I think, too.
Kelly Luback:I mean, there's so many layers for this community, right?
Kelly Luback:It's like navigating your own family relationships where you're wanting to keep your kids safe and emotion, including emotionally, like, emotionally safe, physically safe, all the things.
Kelly Luback:But if your family isn't exactly a family of allies yet, I'm always holding out hope for change.
Kelly Luback:If it feels like a place where you have to defend and your kid isn't emotionally safe, that can look also like fight, flight, or freeze.
Kelly Luback:And so it might look like picking fights with the family or finding ways to not be with them because it sucks to be around them.
Kelly Luback:When you feel like you, your kid isn't safe or, or just, you know, shutting down or having health things show up that are, you know, apparently random health things that are, you know, showing your body.
Kelly Luback:This is a whole other.
Kelly Luback:We need, we need another interview for this one.
Kelly Luback:Like how our bodies give us the signals to say no when we're having a hard time saying no.
Kelly Luback:Right.
Kelly Luback:So I don't mean to go off there, but those are some of the examples.
Kelly Luback:Are there others that you can think of either from your own experience or just from, you know, engaging with your.
Kelly:I think those are, those are really, really good.
Kelly:And, and I think too late and you made the point very, very well that freeze can show up anywhere.
Kelly:So it's not just in a heightened state of anxiety, really activated.
Kelly:It can show up anywhere on, along the line of your, you know, the spectrum of your nervous system and how it works.
Kelly:And so I think that's a really great thing for people just to know, to understand that.
Kelly:And the way it shows up is different for everyone.
Kelly:Everyone has their own special flavor of freeze.
Kelly Luback:Well, let me just clarify on that because the freeze is actually a piece of it.
Kelly Luback:It is the parasympathetic nervous system, but the shutdown part of it.
Kelly Luback:So it may be that some people go into freeze, but what I was wanting to communicate was that that's a real common place to go to and there's lots of freeze.
Kelly Luback:And I think we need a whole other se.
Kelly:I think so, yes.
Kelly Luback:But there's, there's also the more activated place which is the fight or the flight as well.
Kelly Luback:So it just can look different ways.
Kelly Luback:But all of these are different ways that our nervous systems get activated or in some.
Kelly Luback:I'm not a fan of the word trigger, but that they get triggered as well.
Kelly Luback:Right.
Kelly Luback:So those are.
Kelly Luback:So just to clarify.
Kelly:Thank you for clarifying that.
Kelly:Yes, I think that's fair and it's interesting to see.
Kelly:I will just share.
Kelly:It's an example of something that happened very recently because I was watching it, it wasn't happening to me, but we had a graduation party for my daughter and we had lots of people here and a lot of family were here and there.
Kelly:You know, as everyone listening knows that I have a number of non affirming family members.
Kelly:And so this was kind of the first time in, in a while that we were all together and it was a little bit of an experiment.
Kelly:And so it was interesting to watch how each of us handled it and approached different conversations and just the general, their presence in our house and all six of us were here, and all six of us approached it differently.
Kelly:And Connor approached it with fight.
Kelly:And it was so interesting.
Kelly:And at the same time, like, you know, I was actually super proud of him because he.
Kelly:He stayed in his lane, he stood up for himself, and he said things that maybe he wouldn't have said in a other, you know, another situation.
Kelly:But I know in his brain that this was very activating for him.
Kelly:And so this is how he was handling it, was taking on a person and really, like, standing his ground for who he was.
Kelly:And I thought I kind of watched the whole thing happen.
Kelly:I was like, that was actually a really effective use of fighting.
Kelly:And then was able to kind of, you know, the next day we did a whole debrief on everybody's different ways.
Kelly Luback:That they handled a family debrief, that.
Kelly:They were activated and how they felt it, you know, But I think talking about, like, where you.
Kelly:Where did you feel it in your body?
Kelly:Like, how did this affect you?
Kelly:Or how did this affect you?
Kelly:And even if it, you know, wasn't a perfect way of handling something, it was acknowledging it and talking about it and talking about, like, gosh, I'd really like to feel this way when this person is around.
Kelly:And, gosh, it was such a powerful conversation.
Kelly Luback:That is amazing.
Kelly Luback:Heather, can.
Kelly Luback:Okay, I just want to pull out a few different things, and hopefully I'm going to remember them all.
Kelly Luback:So one, I just want to say fight is a healthy response.
Kelly Luback:We, again, the flow of the nervous system, like the river flowing.
Kelly Luback:A healthy nervous system is able to move between these different places, right?
Kelly Luback:We have built into our animal bodies our capacity to fight, our capacity to flee in, our capacity to freeze.
Kelly Luback:And we, again, I don't mean to keep, like, putting it off for another conversation.
Kelly Luback:I just don't want to go down rabbit holes.
Kelly Luback:But.
Kelly Luback:But having each of these different things show up in our nervous system is actually really important.
Kelly Luback:And the fact that Connor has fight in him, and especially after the experience, he has walked.
Kelly Luback:His initial story, as you tell it in the book, is one of flight.
Kelly Luback:He.
Kelly Luback:He runs away, literally.
Kelly Luback:He flees in terror, right?
Kelly Luback:And so now he has this, like, vibrant fight response.
Kelly Luback:What an amazing thing.
Kelly Luback:Now, that doesn't mean go out and beat the shit out of somebody, right?
Kelly Luback:But having a healthy response where you're like, hold the phone.
Kelly Luback:We're going to talk through this.
Kelly Luback:Not right.
Kelly Luback:Like, that's actually really powerful.
Kelly:And this was verbal.
Kelly:I mean, this was not a physical fight.
Kelly:Like, I just want to make that clear.
Kelly:For me, this Was like he was having a well articulated verbal discussion, highly animated discussion with somebody that he did not freeze, he did not flee from.
Kelly:He stood his ground.
Kelly:And I was like, yes, totally.
Kelly:Yeah.
Kelly Luback:And just, just to be clear, I heard that.
Kelly Luback:I just want to make sure it doesn't sound like I'm saying, you know, go beat somebody up.
Kelly:No, I want to make sure everybody was on the same page there.
Kelly Luback:Being able to have like being in his own center and having the capacity to make a, you know, well founded argument and back, like that's really powerful.
Kelly Luback:And then what I also want to say is each of you having your own experience.
Kelly Luback:Like, what a beautiful thing for you to observe.
Kelly Luback:And again, I want to normalize.
Kelly Luback:We all have different ways that we respond and we all also have different ways that we kind of default.
Kelly Luback:Some of us are more afraid, some of us are more fleece, some of us are more freeze.
Kelly Luback:And as we heal and work with the nervous system, we expand our capacity to engage all of those.
Kelly Luback:Right.
Kelly Luback:So I just, I love that you were able to take a step back and really observe, which to me speaks so much to how much you have grown your capacity.
Kelly Luback:Like how wide and deep your river is.
Kelly Luback:Heather.
Kelly Luback:Because if you imagine how many years ago was like seven years, eight years ago.
Kelly Luback:So when he came out, if you imagine like state of your nervous system then and state of your nervous system now, like you were so deep in it and having your own experience and like very much a survival, survival mode, which is again really important.
Kelly Luback:But it's much harder to see.
Kelly Luback:Yes.
Kelly Luback:When you are in a state where you have a healthy and resilient nervous system, you can see the patterns differently.
Kelly Luback:And so you're noticing in your family, oh wow, we all have these different patterns.
Kelly Luback:So I just want to acknowledge that really speaks to a wide and deep river and how much you have grown that which is amazing.
Kelly Luback:And then I think the other here is just to say with all of this, it's really important to normalize these relationships.
Kelly Luback:It's so easy to pathologize people for the experience that they're having.
Kelly Luback:This is one of my favorite things that I teach everything from like deep, you know, de pathologizing.
Kelly Luback:Is that the right word?
Kelly:Sure, I think, I think we're going to make that a word.
Kelly Luback:Yes, I like it for destigmatizing and I like de pathologizing.
Kelly Luback:Like the pathology of anxiety, of low mood, of panic, of.
Kelly Luback:Of the fight.
Kelly Luback:Like when we actually break it down to the biology, there's.
Kelly Luback:It's not.
Kelly Luback:It's not pathological.
Kelly Luback:It's actually just a.
Kelly Luback:It's a learned pattern, a learned response that has happened that can be healed.
Kelly Luback:And so this isn't something to stigmatize.
Kelly Luback:It's actually something to kind of.
Kelly Luback:I always think of it as, you know, if you're with your screaming toddler and you, like, try to shake them or scare them or shove them in a room, like, it actually doesn't.
Kelly Luback:Like, it doesn't work.
Kelly Luback:They don't learn the things they need to learn.
Kelly Luback:If you scoop them up and you say, hey, baby, this is really hard, I see you're really upset, and you have a right to be upset, and this is the way it's gonna go.
Kelly Luback:Like, they'll learn, right?
Kelly Luback:And.
Kelly Luback:But none of us can be.
Kelly Luback:You know, I say the toddler example, but all of us have this.
Kelly Luback:All of us have, like, the unheard toddler in us where, you know, I know as an adult, there have been plenty of times where I'm like, I'm having a denture, like, inner tantrum, and I just want someone to hear me.
Kelly Luback:Right.
Kelly Luback:Don't we all have those?
Kelly:Oh, my gosh, yes.
Kelly Luback:So in that it's like the most potent thing is to actually have someone hear you and witness you.
Kelly Luback:Right.
Kelly Luback:I mean, I think it's part of the success of your podcast.
Kelly Luback:It's like people feel seen and feel heard.
Kelly Luback:Like, all of us need.
Kelly Luback:That is a very.
Kelly Luback:Actually nervous system.
Kelly Luback:It is the love and connection part of our nervous system that needs that, because being feeling seen and heard and accepted is part of.
Kelly Luback:I just.
Kelly Luback:I just got another one we're supposed to do.
Kelly Luback:But, like, feeling seen and heard and accepted, like, that is the work of our nervous system that developed with us living in.
Kelly Luback:In community and collective in tribes.
Kelly:Right.
Kelly Luback:And to be cast out of the tribe is a very, very dysregulating thing.
Kelly Luback:And so if we just bring that full circle back to who our people are that we're talking to here, like, we need more than ever to make sure that our kids feel seen and heard and accepted, and that includes the parents feeling seen and heard and accepted.
Kelly Luback:And that, again, back to the nervous system is actually part of what allows us to walk in the world in a healthy and whole and complete filling way.
Kelly Luback:Yes.
Kelly:And I think just to kind of to wrap this up today, because there are so many different directions we can go.
Kelly:And I think we have, like, four more episodes.
Kelly:But just that acknowledging and naming that you are not broken, this is not something that's, you know, you need to fix There, it's just.
Kelly:It's something that can be healed.
Kelly:It is something that each one of us have our own version of nervous system work and healing that we can do.
Kelly:And so I think there's so much.
Kelly:It's so empowering to know.
Kelly:Oh, gosh, this is something I can actually do, something I can actually actively do something about this so I can feel better and I can be a better me.
Kelly:Which then allows you to be a better you out in the world, right?
Kelly Luback:Yeah.
Kelly Luback:Better parent, better activity, all the things.
Kelly:So, yes.
Kelly:Thank you.
Kelly:Oh, my goodness.
Kelly:So good.
Kelly:So y'all got a taste of the nervous system today.
Kelly:Kelly will be back.
Kelly:We will be having several more conversations over the next few months, so I can't wait for you to hear more.
Kelly:This is where we're going to end for today.
Kelly:Is there anything that you would like to share such as where people can find you if they would like to get in touch with you directly?
Kelly Luback:Sure.
Kelly Luback:So two things.
Kelly Luback:One, I just want to share my favorite expression that I put in all of my love notes and newsletters and what have you, and that is that the world needs you.
Kelly Luback:Well, and that term came to me years ago and I realized as I was writing it, every single newsletter, that it just was the truth of it was just becoming more and more true in my body.
Kelly Luback:And what's held in those words of the world needs you.
Kelly Luback:Well, is the better that the more regulated, the healthier our nervous systems, the more capacity we have.
Kelly Luback:The wider and deeper our rivers are, the better we can show up for our loved ones, for our kids, our partners, our colleagues, our clients, our.
Kelly Luback:Our patients.
Kelly Luback:If you're a healthcare person, our.
Kelly Luback:Our community members and the world, the stronger, the better we are.
Kelly Luback:And the more resilient we are, the better we can show up in the world.
Kelly Luback:And the world right now really needs us.
Kelly Luback:Well, and so I.
Kelly Luback:That's the one piece I want to leave with.
Kelly Luback:And then you can find me@kellylubeck.com and that's K E L L Y L U B E C K dot com.
Kelly Luback:I sure thought.
Kelly Luback:I'm sure that'll be in the show notes and.
Kelly Luback:And yeah, I would love to welcome you into my community and sign up for my love notes and to hear different stories and experiences and tips and tidbits and you'll be invited to different programs or retreats that I'm leading.
Kelly Luback:And I just want to say thank you, Heather.
Kelly Luback:This has been so fun.
Kelly Luback:It's so wonderful to connect with you.
Kelly Luback:And yes, we got lots to talk about.
Kelly:I know.
Kelly:Always.
Kelly:Thank you so so much.
Kelly:I'm glad we made this happen and I can't wait to continue it.
Kelly Luback:Thank you.
Heather:I hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as I did.
Heather:A quick reminder that my brand new book, Parenting with Pride is now available wherever books are sold.
Heather:It is also available in E reader and audiobook format.
Heather:Click on the link in the show notes to buy it right this second or to send it to a friend.
Heather:If Just Breathe means something to you, it would mean so much to me if you would take 30 seconds to do two things.
Heather:First, please follow or subscribe to the show.
Heather:Just click on the plus sign or the word follow wherever you listen to your podcasts.
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Heather:It isn't just a nice thing for others to read, it actually helps this podcast get in front of those who need it most.
Heather:I appreciate you being part of the Just Breathe community.
Heather:Big hugs to you all.
Heather:Until next time.
