Episode 82
Navigating Gender Bias in Schools: Insights from Jason Ablin
Jason Ablin's insights into gender equity in education come alive in a riveting discussion with Heather Hester about his book, "The Gender Equation in Schools." This episode delves deep into the often-overlooked biases that exist within educational systems and the significant impact they have on students' experiences and outcomes. Ablin, who has spent over 35 years in various educational roles, brings a wealth of knowledge and personal experience to the conversation, emphasizing the need for educators to cultivate awareness and understanding of gender dynamics. The dialogue explores how traditional gender stereotypes can limit students’ potential, particularly in fields like mathematics and science, which continue to be perceived as male-dominated. Hester and Ablin advocate for a transformative approach to education, one that encourages all students, regardless of gender identity, to pursue their interests and excel in all subjects. The episode serves as a crucial reminder for educators and parents alike that fostering an inclusive environment is essential for the growth and success of every child.
Ablin shares a significant moment from his early teaching career that reshaped his perspective on gender engagement in the classroom. He recounts how feedback from observers revealed his misinterpretations of student engagement, particularly among girls. What he initially perceived as high engagement was, in fact, a reflection of compliance. This realization pushed him to reevaluate his teaching methods and strive for deeper connections with all his students. Throughout the conversation, Hester and Ablin unpack the complexities of gender identity and the implicit biases that can skew educators’ perceptions of student behavior. They challenge listeners to reflect on how their own biases may influence their interactions with students and stress the importance of creating learning environments where every student feels recognized and respected.
The episode further examines the critical intersection between gender identity and mental health within school settings. Ablin passionately argues that schools must serve as nurturing environments where children feel free to explore their identities without the pressure of conforming to societal norms. He points out that students are often subjected to gender boxes created by adults, which can lead to feelings of anxiety and isolation. The conversation encourages educators to embrace a more inclusive approach, fostering spaces where all expressions of gender are welcomed and celebrated. As they wrap up, Hester and Ablin emphasize the need for continuous dialogue around gender equity in education, urging listeners to become advocates for change within their own communities. This episode not only sheds light on the challenges faced by students but also inspires actionable steps toward creating a more equitable and supportive educational landscape.
Takeaways:
- Awareness and education are foundational to creating inclusive environments for all individuals.
- Implicit biases can significantly affect how educators interact with students of different genders.
- Gender stereotypes impact students' self-perception, especially regarding their abilities in math and literacy.
- Creating safe spaces in schools is crucial for students exploring their gender identities.
- Strong role models are essential for inspiring girls to pursue STEM and academic success.
- Teachers must actively work to understand their own biases to effectively support all students.
About our Guest:
Jason Ablin (@JasonAblin) is the author of The Gender Equation in Schools: How To Create Equity and Fairness For All Students. He has served as a teacher, department chair, principal, and head of school. He holds national certification in leadership coaching and mentoring from the National Association of School Principals and has been supporting and mentoring new leaders throughout the country for over 15 years. At American Jewish University’s Graduate School for Jewish Education and Leadership and in school-based teacher workshops, he trains teachers to create gender aware classrooms and has taught year-long courses regarding the relationship between cognitive neuroscience and education. He is also the founder and director of AJU’s Mentor Teacher Certification Program.
Social Media:
Twitter: @jasonablin
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jason.ablin.7
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jasonablin/
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jason-ablin-665749176/
Post: https://post.news/@jasonablin
Website: Ablineducation.com
Blog: Educating Gender
Book: The Gender Equation in Schools: How to Create Equity and Fairness for All Students
MyWebsite: Ablin Educational Services, LLC.
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Email: hh@chrysalismama.com
Transcript
Welcome back my friends.
Speaker A:I am so happy you are here.
Speaker A:My hope for you is that you can take a deep breath and feel a sense of calm while you are here today.
Speaker A:Listening DEI Diversity, Equity and Inclusion is a huge initiative for corporations and academic institutions right now, as it should be.
Speaker A:It is multifaceted and can seem really quite complicated.
Speaker A:But it really comes down to two things, awareness and education.
Speaker A:How can we increase our awareness, deepen our knowledge, and make the necessary shifts in our actions and in our lives to help make every space one that is inclusive and filled with love?
Speaker A:To me, this is not just an abstract question, but a guiding principle for daily life.
Speaker A:I invite you to join me on this quest.
Heather Hester:Welcome to Just Parenting your LGBTQ Team, the podcast transforming the conversation around loving and raising an LGBT LGBTQ child.
Heather Hester:My name is Heather Hester and I am so grateful you are here.
Speaker A:I want you to take a deep.
Heather Hester:Breath and know that for the time we are together, you are in the safety of the Just Breathe nest.
Heather Hester:Whether today's show is an amazing guest or me sharing stories, resources, strategies, or lessons I've learned along our journey, I want you to feel like we're just hanging out at a coffee shop having a cozy chat.
Heather Hester:Most of all, I want you to remember that wherever you are on this journey right now, in this moment in time, you are not alone.
Speaker A:My guest today has been studying gender equity for the better part of the past two decades.
Speaker A:Jason Ablin is the author of the Gender Equation in Schools, how to Create Equity and Fairness for All Students.
Speaker A:He has served as a teacher, department chair, principal, and head of school.
Speaker A:He holds national certification in leadership Coaching and Mentoring from the national association of School Principals and has been supporting and mentoring new leaders throughout the country for over 15 years.
Speaker A:At American Jewish University's Graduate School for Jewish Education and Leadership and in school based Teacher workshops.
Speaker A:He trains teachers to create gender aware classrooms and has taught year long courses regarding the relationship between cognitive neuroscience and education.
Speaker A:He is also the founder and director of AJU's Mentor Teacher Certification Program.
Speaker A:Jason uses his background in math, teaching, school leadership and neuroscience to present expert interviews, research and anecdotes about gender bias in schools and how it impacts our best efforts to educate children.
Speaker A:I am delighted to share our conversation with you today.
Speaker A:Enjoy.
Speaker C:Jason, thank you so much for being here with me today and being here to talk about your book and just to have a really I'm excited to have this conversation with you because this is not one that we've had before here and I think that discussing gender and Education can seem like a really broad topic.
Speaker C:So I'm really, really excited to talk with you about this today.
Speaker C:But before we jump into it, I'd love if you, in your own words, could give just a little background about yourself and how you got into this work specifically.
Jason Ablin:That's great, Heather, and a lot of gratitude for being here today and having this conversation.
Jason Ablin:I've been in education for over 35 years.
Jason Ablin:Teacher, a department chair, an administrator, a head of school, principal.
Jason Ablin:I've gone through really all of it.
Jason Ablin:I had some specific training and was able to do a sabbatical year in cognitive NeuroScience down to USC with Mary Helen Imordino Yang, who's one of the top researchers in the country, really, in terms of this topic and education in general.
Jason Ablin:And it's to try to pinpoint one area or one time when this kind of light bulb went off about gender and education.
Jason Ablin:It would be tough.
Jason Ablin:It wouldn't be easy because it's been a long narrative.
Jason Ablin:I will tell you one story which you probably read in the book, which is about me as an early teacher when I was 28 years old.
Jason Ablin:I see you're already laughing.
Jason Ablin:Right.
Jason Ablin:It was one of these moments where, you know, a young male with a lot of kind of masculinity.
Jason Ablin:Construction got taken down quite a notch by four graduate students who came to watch me teach inside of my classrooms.
Jason Ablin:And I was in a school with a unique structure with girls campus and a boys campus very close to each other.
Jason Ablin:So we taught on both campuses.
Jason Ablin:The faculty, I was head of the English department, and I would teach the girls in the morning and then go to the boys in the afternoon to teach.
Jason Ablin:So it was a perfect kind of area for research for these postdocs who are coming to look at gender and education.
Speaker C:Sure.
Jason Ablin:And of course, I was quite high on myself at the time as an educator.
Jason Ablin:I thought I was the best thing that had ever happened to the school.
Jason Ablin:And I said, sure, they can come watch me teach.
Jason Ablin:They're going to learn so much about how to do this.
Jason Ablin:Right.
Jason Ablin:You know.
Jason Ablin:And by the end of this process, when they had come visited me 20 times in each class, they.
Jason Ablin:They basically said to me, jason, you know, we'd love to share with you the data if you'd, you know, if you want to see it.
Jason Ablin:And I was 28 years old at the time.
Jason Ablin:And I said, of course.
Jason Ablin:And I sat down and it was one of the most grueling 2 1/2 to 3 hours I'd ever had of kind of professional feedback about what I was doing in these classrooms.
Jason Ablin:And so much of it had to do with the lens that I had regarding gender that I didn't know that I had.
Jason Ablin:Right.
Jason Ablin:That I didn't know.
Jason Ablin:It was all implicit within the background of how I functioned.
Jason Ablin:And to just give you an example, had a girls class, which I perceived to be highly engaged.
Jason Ablin:And what the research was telling me was that what I had was a class of about 35 to 40% who are highly engaged and about 60% who are being really obedient and passive.
Jason Ablin:And for me, that was some kind of an indication that they are actually engaged.
Jason Ablin:And of course, you know, that's part of this gap of my understanding at the time about the way that women are taught, especially in schools, that obedience is a form of educational value.
Jason Ablin:Right.
Jason Ablin:Jumping through the hoops, not asserting themselves.
Jason Ablin:And then, of course, this gets very much translated later on in life for them, in their professional lives and in all sorts of areas in their personal lives, which has been told to me numerous times by adults and parents who identify as women.
Jason Ablin:And then, you know, at the boys side, I found myself being at times overly assertive, overly aggressive, not necessarily really getting to know the boys, misinterpreting their misbehavior, and also constructing for them a very, very negative connotation about what does it mean to be a man right, in this environment?
Jason Ablin:Because with them, I was being a lot more aggressive, I was being a lot more assertive with them.
Jason Ablin:And I.
Jason Ablin:What the lessons really told me was that I need to.
Jason Ablin:I needed to spend more time getting to know these kids and figuring out ways to get them involved, which went above and beyond the gender question by becoming more aware of this.
Jason Ablin:What I understood was the way we're going to make kids more successful in school is by really getting to know them much better.
Jason Ablin:And that also means eliminating some of our own biases that we happen to have when we walk into classrooms.
Jason Ablin:And then I was off and running.
Jason Ablin:I was on this long journey to discover more and more about this.
Jason Ablin:And then around metoo was the time I said, I need to sit down and start writing about this and writing.
Jason Ablin: And in: Jason Ablin:I'd been writing a blog for a while, and the book emerged four and a half years later.
Jason Ablin:So that's the Log Cabin story on what happened.
Speaker C:I mean, it is amazing, and I'm so glad you shared that, because there are several pieces of that that I think are really, really important that translate in education, but translate, I mean, also into just Human interaction and the way that we talk to each other, and we don't even realize some of the things that we're doing.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:And I'm wondering if this lines up.
Speaker C:I'm just going to, like, say a few things, and you can tell me the tone of our voice, our body language, the words that we choose to use.
Speaker C:I think it is absolutely fascinating.
Speaker C:And as I was reading your book, I was thinking to myself, I mean, it made me kind of do reflection, like, along the way.
Speaker C:And I think that's one of the things that I loved about it was thinking, oh, gosh, like, this is such an automatic thing, but why is it automatic?
Speaker C:Right, Correct.
Jason Ablin:Right, exactly.
Jason Ablin:Exactly.
Jason Ablin:And I think we have a lot invested in terms of, as adults, the identities that we create, particularly around sexuality and gender.
Jason Ablin:And they're, you know, they.
Jason Ablin:They've.
Jason Ablin:They've been embedded in us for a very long time.
Jason Ablin:And so to recognize that what I try to tell the teachers that it's.
Jason Ablin:Right, there's.
Jason Ablin:It's called implicit bias for a reason.
Jason Ablin:It's not something that you're necessarily aware of.
Jason Ablin:And at the same time, one of the dangers of it, particularly as educators, kids spend so much of their time at schools.
Jason Ablin:Right.
Jason Ablin:Six, eight, ten hours a day.
Jason Ablin:So much of acculturation and culture and what they get is from being around adults like us being around the educators.
Heather Hester:Right.
Jason Ablin:So we have to be really aware of how we relate to gender.
Jason Ablin:It's one of the first places I go when I do faculty workshops and I do work with faculties in schools.
Jason Ablin:I ask them, tell me your gender story.
Jason Ablin:Tell us what?
Jason Ablin:How you experience gender.
Jason Ablin:When did you first become aware of gender as an idea?
Jason Ablin:And I get incredible stories from faculty.
Jason Ablin:Incredible.
Jason Ablin:Everybody's got a story.
Jason Ablin:Everybody.
Speaker C:Of course.
Speaker C:Of course.
Speaker C:And I would imagine the.
Speaker C:Depending on how old they are makes the story.
Speaker C:I mean, I would imagine generationally, those stories are quite fascinating.
Jason Ablin:Oh, wow.
Jason Ablin:Yeah, absolutely.
Jason Ablin:Like.
Speaker C:Yes, yes.
Speaker C:Oh, my goodness.
Speaker C:I love that.
Speaker C:And I love.
Speaker C:You know, I think one of the things that I always say in what I do is the whole.
Speaker C:And it's so simple, you know, it simplifies everything.
Speaker C:Or it's simplistic.
Speaker C:Is the name entertainment.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:So in speaking.
Speaker C:I typically use it speaking of fear.
Speaker C:Talking about fear.
Speaker C:But in this case, this is.
Speaker C:It works too, because once you bring something like this, become aware of it, then you begin to see it in your behaviors and your actions.
Speaker C:And that's how you can begin to shift.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:That's where the shifts begin, is becoming really just Aware.
Speaker C:It's your awareness.
Jason Ablin:Yeah.
Speaker C:Is that what you teach when you are working with educators?
Jason Ablin:Absolutely.
Jason Ablin:I mean, it's the place you have to begin, because unfortunately, you know, I thought my book, when I was originally writing it, might be a little bit controversial.
Jason Ablin: Now we end up in: Jason Ablin:So one of the things I have to communicate to the teachers right away is that the reason we're doing this is to make kids more successful in school.
Jason Ablin:That gets lost sometimes in all of the politics and the polarization around gender as an issue that I think my book is really committed to figuring out ways for faculty to feel like they're helping students with what they're supposed to be teaching them.
Jason Ablin:And we do that through a gender lens.
Jason Ablin:And then all of a sudden, the guards come down a little bit.
Speaker C:Yes, well, they do, because.
Speaker C:And I will say that it was not.
Speaker C:I did not once feel like I was reading a book with a political agenda at all.
Speaker C:And so.
Jason Ablin:Good to hear.
Jason Ablin:Right?
Speaker C:Sure.
Speaker C:And like you, I do pay attention quite a bit to politics, and I am very tapped into them.
Speaker C:And I thought I might, I mean, to be honest, because how we're talking about gender, it is.
Speaker C:It's one of the top five things that you.
Speaker C:That are, like you said, on fire right now.
Speaker C:Right?
Jason Ablin:Yeah.
Speaker C:And.
Speaker C:And you and I are paying attention to it for many, many reasons.
Speaker C:So I was.
Speaker C:To me, I was like, oh, wow.
Speaker C:Like, this is, like, fully an educational, engaging, educational book.
Speaker C:It's not a.
Speaker C:You should think this.
Speaker C:Because of this, like, thing over here, that I felt like I was being a little bit hoodwinked, you know, or like, that's right.
Speaker C:This is a little questionable.
Speaker C:Or, you know, where sometimes you're like, mm, that just doesn't feel right.
Speaker C:That is not how this felt.
Speaker C:So I really appreciate how you.
Speaker C:How you wrote this, which is a gift, so thank you.
Speaker C:And I appreciate also that you brought in.
Speaker C:One of the things that you and I were talking about before, and I really, really want to talk about it, is because this was such an aha thing for me, the whole idea of math and literacy, or math and English, or however you want to talk about it.
Speaker C:I mean, who out there listening to this says math?
Speaker C:Math is for men, Right?
Speaker C:I mean, I guess we all think that to a certain degree and some subconscious level.
Speaker C:I've always thought, well, I'm not good at math.
Speaker C:I'm just not good at math.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:Well, why am I not good at math?
Jason Ablin:Right, exactly.
Jason Ablin:Who decided at what point?
Speaker C:Well, she's a girl, she's a good reader.
Speaker C:Gosh, look how fast she can read.
Speaker C:We're going to make her a reader, right?
Speaker C:We're going to make her good at English.
Jason Ablin:So, yeah.
Jason Ablin:And Heather, again, this is part of that constructed experience of school which gets inherited from generation to generation.
Jason Ablin:And that's the complexity of it, that Heather does not see herself as a math person.
Jason Ablin:And there's no reason for Heather not to see herself as a math person.
Jason Ablin:There's absolutely no biological or genetic evidence at all.
Jason Ablin:None.
Jason Ablin:That it's like one of these great mythologies that we have about men and women.
Jason Ablin:And what I found a lot is that when I'm in schools and I'm speaking to parents and I'm trying to explain to them how the translation of what goes on and when I'm speaking to teachers as well, it's very hard because there's a lot of dissonance there.
Jason Ablin:A lot of parents have ingrained this concept of themselves.
Jason Ablin:So the mothers will immediately defer all sorts of all sorts of decisions and support and help because they imagine themselves a certain way.
Jason Ablin:And then they continue, we continue with the same gender stereotypes with teachers.
Jason Ablin:It can be quite challenging because teachers often are not necessarily self selecting into the field where they could have selected into places like engineering and computer science and even medicine.
Jason Ablin:They often have selected into education because math was, quote, unquote, not their thing.
Speaker C:Right.
Jason Ablin:So I'll go into schools and this, these can be very woke environments, right.
Jason Ablin:Places that see themselves as very progressive.
Jason Ablin:And I will walk into their classrooms and as you know, I mentioned this in the book as well.
Jason Ablin:I'll walk around the classrooms and 80% of the material in the classroom that's on the wall that's represented is English literacy skills, English language acquisition skills, projects, there's always some art projects, maybe a little bit of history.
Jason Ablin:And then there's what I call the U ubiquitous number line that runs across the top of the room.
Jason Ablin:Right, okay.
Jason Ablin:And the teachers think, oh, I've covered math, I've put math up.
Jason Ablin:Right.
Jason Ablin:I put the number line up.
Jason Ablin:I'll see it in the first grade class, I'll see it in the second grade class, I'll see it in a third grade class.
Jason Ablin:Doesn't matter what year the number line is up.
Jason Ablin:Right.
Jason Ablin:And I try to explain to the teachers that this kind of constructed representation is sending volumes of messages to the girls in the classroom and the boys in the classroom and what they should be associating with and how they associate with it.
Jason Ablin:And that is very cognitive, right?
Jason Ablin:That is very cognitive.
Jason Ablin:How they translate that experience based on who's presenting it to them.
Speaker C:Right.
Jason Ablin:And identity.
Jason Ablin:So this happened.
Jason Ablin:This begins at a very young age.
Jason Ablin:This begins as early as kindergarten with how it's taught, the way it's.
Jason Ablin:Yeah.
Jason Ablin:The way it's represented and everything like that.
Jason Ablin:Yeah, it's really incredible.
Speaker C:I mean, absolutely fascinating.
Speaker C:And, you know, as you were saying that, I'm thinking, well, this is why women in STEM is such a, you know, an extraordinary thing, right, that.
Speaker C:That we're really trying to push.
Speaker C:I have.
Speaker C:My older daughter is in stem.
Speaker C:She's at University of Michigan in engineering.
Speaker C:And I've always been amazed by her brain because I'm, like, as a person who has always said, I'm not good at math, right.
Speaker C:Like, I literally fit into your, like, little mold here.
Speaker C:Cause I'm like, I am not good at math.
Speaker C:I am good at English and writing and reading.
Speaker C:Those are my.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:And my daughter is math, science.
Speaker C:She's also very good at writing, too.
Speaker C:I mean, she's one of those kids.
Speaker C:She's just brilliant.
Speaker C:You know, that being said, like, she is.
Jason Ablin:Get back.
Speaker C:And I'm always like, yes, like, she can do math, and that's cool, but it shouldn't be that way.
Speaker C:Right.
Jason Ablin:I mean, that shouldn't be that way.
Jason Ablin:Right?
Jason Ablin:So it's.
Jason Ablin:It's an ironic thing, because you and me are in the same boat.
Jason Ablin:I had the same experience in school, ironically, Right.
Jason Ablin:I had the same experience as a boy, feeling, as a young man, feeling like I was not capable in mathematics.
Jason Ablin:And that creates a whole other set of dilemmas for boys in school where they feel left out of the narrative among other boys in the school.
Jason Ablin:They're questioning identity.
Jason Ablin:They're wondering what this means.
Jason Ablin:It's very stressful and can create a lot of anxiety among young boys when they find themselves in that position.
Jason Ablin:And again, it's kind of one of the things that we look at when we look at the data, which is a little bit shocking, is we've constantly imagined that boys are just doing much better in math than girls are in school.
Jason Ablin:But in fact, PISA scores for the last 40 years have shown us that boys occupy the bottom 26% of math learners in the United States.
Jason Ablin:But they get left out of the picture also because of gender bias.
Speaker C:Right?
Jason Ablin:Because we almost don't see them.
Jason Ablin:It's almost like a shadow group that doesn't get acknowledged because we're just so locked into these narratives of boys being good at mathematics.
Jason Ablin:And so we never address our needs.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:Well, it's the whole idea of that's what we're comfortable with.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:And you address that as well.
Speaker C:Here is really, you know, going right at, right away the things that we're not comfortable with.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:So what is uncomfortable?
Speaker C:Let's talk about that.
Speaker C:And that's where we have to shift.
Speaker C:And that works well for both of us.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:And what we're both doing, what makes you uncomfortable, that's what we're talking about.
Speaker C:So, you know, I, that is, I find this just so completely fascinating and also something that we are fully capable of turning around.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:Now that you figured this out, now that, you know, you've, you've written about it, and this is something that's being studied.
Speaker C:This is something that.
Speaker C:Holy cow.
Speaker C:This can shift education in such an extraordinary way.
Speaker C:Wow.
Jason Ablin:I think so.
Jason Ablin:I think it's really, obviously, I think it's one of the core ways in which we can really address sort of impediments to learning which have been around for a very, very long time.
Jason Ablin:You know, I'm going to go back to your daughter with stem, for instance.
Jason Ablin:This is a great example.
Jason Ablin:And I get questions about STEM all the time.
Jason Ablin:I'm going to be speaking at the National Science Teachers Conference on women in STEM and girls in STEM and what can we do?
Jason Ablin:Right.
Jason Ablin:What's going on?
Jason Ablin:And one of the big things I put out there right away is we don't need pink robots.
Jason Ablin:Okay?
Jason Ablin:We don't.
Jason Ablin:That's like, you know, we don't need pink robots and we don't need kids coding about fashion design that's not going to get more girls involved in stem.
Jason Ablin:And I find that argument incredibly insulting to someone like your daughter who has such a passion and an interest in something like engineering and possibly robotics.
Jason Ablin:And there was some great teacher who, who inspired her and got her really feeling great about this.
Jason Ablin:And she just took off.
Jason Ablin:Right?
Jason Ablin:She just took off.
Jason Ablin:And we, you know, the studies have shown us very clearly that when girls, young girls have strong female models who are successful in the field and can speak to them about their passions in this area and they have the role models, and these are consistent role models that they're much more likely to engage in STEM and mathematics and all of these different areas, and we just need to find them and put them in front of the girls.
Speaker C:That's right.
Speaker C:That's exactly right.
Jason Ablin:Goodness.
Speaker C:I mean, what a game changer.
Speaker C:What a game changer.
Speaker C:I mean, my daughter, despite she had a very strong male Science teacher who was, I mean, incredibly inspirational and Science Olympiad and all of that and saw in her and just.
Speaker C:But the power that a female teacher would have for a young girl would be just.
Speaker C:Yeah, wow.
Speaker C:Absolutely amazing.
Speaker C:There's one more thing that I wanted to touch on really quickly before we.
Speaker C:Before we wrap up.
Speaker C:You talked.
Speaker C:And I wonder if we can kind of talk about this in a nutshell here.
Speaker C:We'll leave this as the carrot for everyone so you can read more.
Speaker C:But I thought this was really interesting because you talked about this with relation to mental health and you just talked about it just a little bit before.
Speaker C:But I wanted to kind of circle back to it because I think that's a really, really powerful and important point that people, we really don't realize.
Speaker C:So could you talk about that just a little bit before we wrap up?
Jason Ablin:Absolutely.
Jason Ablin:I'm very passionate about this.
Jason Ablin:Not just because I want to make school more successful for students, but I also want them to feel safe inside of schools.
Jason Ablin:And unfortunately, we do a lot of things.
Jason Ablin:I'm a big believer that we've got it a little backwards.
Jason Ablin:In other words, that I think that we think we're in this new age where kids are really thinking about themselves differently about gender right now.
Jason Ablin:And I think actually kids have been thinking about themselves differently with gender for a very long time.
Jason Ablin:And what's happened is that our understandings of the kind of gender experimentation that they're doing at a very young age is we haven't caught up to it and we haven't been observant of it for a number of reasons.
Jason Ablin:Part of it is that gender blindness, right.
Jason Ablin:We're not seeing what's going on with them.
Jason Ablin:But kids are experimenting with gender all the time.
Jason Ablin:Right.
Jason Ablin:And you know, it's the adults, unfortunately, who tend to have the.
Jason Ablin:Either parents or teachers at times in terms of how they describe them or how they're working with them, them put them into a gender box, you know, and as kids get older and that experimentation starts turning into really what I find to be foundational aspects of who they are from a gender perspective, whether they consider themselves cisgender or whether they consider they see themselves as gay or non binary or whatever it is, which now we have a language for which I think is incredibly helpful.
Jason Ablin:I think what happens is that it makes the adults in the building very nervous.
Jason Ablin:And the adults have not really figured out how to navigate this well, mainly because we're also triangulated with families and what families are doing and what children are doing.
Jason Ablin:Sometimes school can be the Place where kids come and as Bene Brown says, they come in and, you know, hang up their anxieties like they hang up their backpack.
Jason Ablin:Right.
Jason Ablin:Because school's a really safe place for them and they feel that way.
Jason Ablin:But sometimes school can also be a traumatizing environment, which I talk about in the book.
Jason Ablin:And it's.
Jason Ablin:It's.
Jason Ablin:I think it's really our job more than anything else to make kids feel as if they are not going to a be put into some kind of gender box.
Jason Ablin:That's one thing.
Jason Ablin:And then really lay the cultural foundations so that whoever walks through our door in any way that they're experimenting feels accepted and loved and cared about, and that there's going to be adults who really embrace them for really who they are.
Jason Ablin:And I think that that's the work that we need to do right now in our schools.
Jason Ablin:It's a very.
Jason Ablin:I don't know what your son's experience was in school, and, you know, you probably have a lot of stories about that.
Jason Ablin:But when I speak to kids, I've had six kids in 35 years in education.
Jason Ablin:I've had six kids who I know of who have transitioned, and I stay in touch with about three of them.
Jason Ablin:And, you know, they've talked to me about what their experiences have been like at school and what they went through and they knew about their transitioning process, some of them, since they were six or seven years old.
Jason Ablin:Yeah.
Jason Ablin:So, you know, we find ourselves in contentious times, but I think there's also an opportunity to make schools really loving and caring and kind places where kids can, you know, come in and really feel like they have safe spaces to exist and learn and grow.
Speaker C:Yeah, agreed.
Speaker C:Agreed.
Speaker C:Oh, my goodness.
Speaker C:Well, I think that's a beautiful place for us to end for today.
Speaker C:I am so delighted that you have been here, that you've taken time.
Speaker C:I want to give the name of your book again for everyone.
Speaker C:I'm actually going to hold it up for everyone to see.
Jason Ablin:I'm going to do that, too.
Jason Ablin:That.
Jason Ablin:If you're going to do that.
Jason Ablin:Look at this.
Speaker C:Here we go.
Speaker C:The Gender Equation in Schools.
Speaker C:How to Create Equity and Fairness for All Students.
Speaker C:I will have the link for how you can get this book in the show notes and in all social media.
Speaker C:And I just highly encourage you to read this book because it really is a game changer and a mind opener.
Speaker C:So it aligns a lot more with work that we are doing than you may realize.
Speaker C:So I love that.
Jason Ablin:I love that.
Speaker C:So, Jason, is there anything else that you would like to share or to end with before we say goodbye.
Jason Ablin:I just love the partnership.
Jason Ablin:I love the collaboration and the conversations and I just super appreciate being asked to be on the show.
Jason Ablin:And thank you so much.
Jason Ablin:Thank you so much.
Speaker C:You are so welcome.
Speaker A:And now it's time for your parenting LGBTQ and A.
Speaker A:This episode's LGBTQ and A comes from an email I recently received.
Speaker A:The sender asked a number of really, really great questions that were nuanced and situation specific.
Speaker A:However, the one I wanted to share with you today is this.
Speaker A:Should parents ask their kids if they are lgbt?
Speaker A:The answer is no.
Speaker A:Part of your child's journey is deciding when they are ready to come out to you.
Speaker A:If you ask them and out them, you are taking away a growth opportunity.
Speaker A:An opportunity for them to be brave and share with you who they authentically are.
Speaker A:Even if you've known for years, it is so, so important to let them figure it out on their own.
Speaker A:And when they share it with you, please say congratulations.
Speaker A:I am so happy for you.
Speaker A:Not I've always known.
Speaker A:The latter just takes all of the joy out of the process for them.
Speaker A:Now, if you want to have the conversation with your kids that you love, all of them, every bit of them, exactly as they are in this moment, go right ahead.
Speaker A:Even our teenagers like to hear that.
Heather Hester:Thanks so much for joining me today.
Heather Hester:If you enjoyed today's episode, I would be so grateful for a rating or a review.
Speaker A:Click on the link in the show.
Heather Hester:Notes or go to my website chrysalis mama.com to stay up to date on my latest resources as well as to learn how you can work with me.
Heather Hester:Please share this podcast with anyone who needs to know that they are not alone.
Heather Hester:And remember to just breathe.
Heather Hester:Until next time.
