The Shadows We Carry: Michael's Insights on Overcoming Shame

Heather Hester: 00:00:12

Welcome to Just Breathe Parenting, your LGBTQ team, the podcast transforming the conversation around loving and raising an LGBTQ child.

Heather Hester: 00:00:24

My name is Heather Hester, and I am so grateful you are here.

Heather Hester: 00:00:29

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Heather Hester: 00:00:39

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Heather Hester: 00:00:56

Most of all, I want you to remember that wherever you are on this journey right now, in this moment in time, you are not alone.

Host: 00:01:13

Welcome to Just Breathe.

Host: 00:01:15

I am so happy you all are here today, and I am really happy just to jump right into this chat with Michael and just.

Host: 00:01:25

We have so many things to learn from him, so many really, really cool things that he is doing currently.

Host: 00:01:32

But before we get into all of those amazing works that you're doing, I would love, and I know that everyone listening would love to know kind of how you got started in this work and what your story is.

Michael: 00:01:47

Okay, sure.

Michael: 00:01:48

Well, thank you, first of all, for having me here, Heather.

Michael: 00:01:50

I'm very excited and I'm, you know, I was.

Michael: 00:01:54

I love what you're doing, and I just want to thank you, really, from the bottom of my heart for what you're doing, because it does inspire me to also grow and do more.

Michael: 00:02:04

So a little bit about my story, you know, is.

Michael: 00:02:08

I guess it's a pretty atypical growing up gay story, which led me to where I am today.

Michael: 00:02:16

You know, I am a.

Michael: 00:02:17

I'm a master life coach now, but I wasn't always that there.

Michael: 00:02:23

You know, that's really where I was led, where my heart was led to.

Michael: 00:02:26

But before that, you know, I had a pretty.

Michael: 00:02:30

Pretty tough childhood.

Michael: 00:02:32

My.

Michael: 00:02:33

Not so much in my family unit, but outside of the home, where I was pretty severely bullied for being that sissy and for being overweight.

Michael: 00:02:43

I was very overweight as a child, which, you know, all of that led me to really not being okay with who I was.

Michael: 00:02:53

You know, I was hiding every aspect of who I was.

Michael: 00:02:58

And, you know, now that I've been doing so much inner work and over the years, I've realized that, you know, so many gay children really learn how to navigate and overcompensate.

Michael: 00:03:09

For shame.

Michael: 00:03:11

Essentially, you know, we knew.

Michael: 00:03:13

I knew.

Michael: 00:03:14

I should say I knew I was different.

Michael: 00:03:16

I knew there was something that was inherently wrong with me because I wasn't like everyone else.

Michael: 00:03:24

So I'm telling you a little bit of this story because then it'll sort of lead to how I got to what I'm doing right now.

Host: 00:03:30

Absolutely.

Michael: 00:03:31

You know, that, that being bullied constantly.

Michael: 00:03:33

You know, I was the kid who was bullied on the playground all the time, who heard names that were so deep rootedly painful that I didn't even realize the impact of them.

Michael: 00:03:44

You know, I was the kid in junior high that every day was thrown into a locker and locked in there and never felt like I had anyone who I could go to, including, you know, the teachers and the counselors to support me because I didn't want to rock the boat.

Michael: 00:04:02

And I certainly didn't want to tell them why I was being, you know, bullied the way I was.

Michael: 00:04:08

But all of that bullying and all of the pain and the fear, the deep rooted fear was something that I carried into adulthood.

Michael: 00:04:17

And then I realized, actually I was sort of a late bloomer in the gay world.

Michael: 00:04:22

When I was 24, I actually realized I was gay.

Michael: 00:04:26

And I had done such a great job of covering myself out in the world and navigating myself to look like and act like everyone else that, you know, I was just going along and I didn't even realize what was actually going on.

Michael: 00:04:44

I had no, I had no one around me who was gay that I knew.

Michael: 00:04:49

So I had no example.

Michael: 00:04:51

And.

Michael: 00:04:51

But I was in art school, actually.

Michael: 00:04:54

I went to school and got a Bachelor's of fine arts.

Michael: 00:04:58

And while I was in college, that's when actually I realized I was gay.

Michael: 00:05:03

But I still decided to hide it because there was still a shame even within an art community for me at that time.

Michael: 00:05:11

So I was really a master at hiding who I was.

Michael: 00:05:16

And you know, I've since come to learn that there are stages of shame that most gay children and then gay men, which is who I can speak for, go through that, lead them through their life.

Host: 00:05:30

Yeah.

Michael: 00:05:31

So life goes on.

Michael: 00:05:32

And I get all the high paying jobs and I have a beautiful apartment and I have all the things that we do to show the world externally that we are okay.

Michael: 00:05:45

But inside I wasn't and I knew I wasn't.

Michael: 00:05:49

And I was hiding my truth to my family.

Michael: 00:05:52

I was sneaking out at night with my friends, having, you know, big time.

Michael: 00:05:56

I had dual life at that point.

Michael: 00:05:59

Once I graduated from college, I will note that when I left, when I left College, I was 150 pounds overweight and I lost that weight in a year when the first time I went to a gay bar, someone shamed me in the bar and I thought, wow, even within my own community, I'm not okay and there's something wrong with me.

Michael: 00:06:26

So I did go and I lost the weight.

Michael: 00:06:27

I was motivated and my life, you know, I started meeting all these people.

Michael: 00:06:31

My life changed.

Michael: 00:06:32

But again, I was doing all this perfect cover up of what life could be like.

Michael: 00:06:38

And life went on.

Michael: 00:06:39

I had big paying jobs, I was vice president of companies, I was the president of a company.

Michael: 00:06:45

I was in a creative, I was a creative director for 30 years and I was winning awards.

Michael: 00:06:50

I was doing all of this stuff.

Michael: 00:06:51

But inside I knew something was still missing.

Michael: 00:06:55

And fortunately, I was led to a workshop by the late bestselling author Debbie Ford called the Shadow Process.

Michael: 00:07:05

And in that weekend, I don't know if you're familiar with it or Debbie's work, I was introduced to this thing called the shadow.

Michael: 00:07:13

And how the shadow actually holds us back from the truth of who we are and living life the way we want it to be.

Michael: 00:07:24

The shadow is something we acquire at a very young age, usually under the age of 10.

Michael: 00:07:30

And I work with clients to actually start to uncover these shadows.

Michael: 00:07:34

And what we do is we make something, we make the world mean something about us.

Michael: 00:07:38

We are meaning making machines naturally, as human beings, but as a child, we could not discern what, what really was truth and what, you know, I say what's fact and what's fiction.

Michael: 00:07:49

So I took it all in as fiction.

Michael: 00:07:52

And then I held onto those shadow beliefs through my life.

Michael: 00:07:56

And they were the driver, they were my operating system for how I led my life, which quite honestly was very steeped in fear.

Michael: 00:08:05

So everything I did was fear based.

Michael: 00:08:07

I believed the world was not safe.

Michael: 00:08:09

I believed I was not safe.

Michael: 00:08:11

So as this gay man now out in the world, who was outwardly very successful, inwardly, I was not.

Michael: 00:08:19

And that weekend completely transformed my life when I realized that that was the, that was the, the real root of my shame.

Michael: 00:08:28

The core of the shame was these beliefs that I had acquired.

Michael: 00:08:34

No one sort of gave them to me.

Michael: 00:08:35

But again, I was acquired by that, you know, and held onto them.

Michael: 00:08:40

And once I was able to work with that, I was able to see, wow, this is transformational.

Michael: 00:08:47

You know, as a gay man, I could actually changed the way I feel about myself at such a core level.

Michael: 00:08:53

And I was blessed with a coach who approached me that weekend and said, hey, I would love to work with you.

Michael: 00:09:00

I'm specifically focusing on gay men or the gay community, and I'd love to work with you.

Michael: 00:09:06

And he allowed me to work with him.

Michael: 00:09:09

And from there, I just uncovered all things about my worthiness and about self love and about, you know, these commitments that we make to ourself.

Michael: 00:09:19

And I was able to shift my life.

Michael: 00:09:22

You know, that inner journey was such an important aspect of the whole journey for me.

Michael: 00:09:28

You know, the author Neil Donald Walsh says, you know, if we don't go within, we go without.

Michael: 00:09:36

But I was so scared to look inside because I.

Michael: 00:09:39

First of all, I'd never, you know, I was a kid from New York, you know, like, what is this?

Michael: 00:09:43

I don't go inside, you know, but doing that and really going in and having that inner journey opened me up to finding the most important person in my life, which was me.

Host: 00:09:56

Right?

Michael: 00:09:57

You know, really learning to love myself.

Michael: 00:10:00

So out of that, doing that work, still creative director, still having this life out here, I also started working on my path to becoming a life coach.

Michael: 00:10:10

Because I thought if I can just hold space, because that's really what a life coach does for others, to have these kinds of exploration and revelation.

Michael: 00:10:23

Oy.

Michael: 00:10:24

That's my purpose in the world.

Michael: 00:10:25

That's my passion, you know, to hold that space.

Michael: 00:10:29

And from there, I.

Michael: 00:10:31

I got certified with the Debbie Ford Institute.

Michael: 00:10:34

And then from there, I've now been part of a wonderful institute called 11 Life Coach Academy, where I have additional certifications as a life coach.

Michael: 00:10:43

And then a couple of years ago, I said, okay, it's time to leave corporate.

Michael: 00:10:47

Thank you for the gifts you gave me.

Michael: 00:10:49

Now it's time to really focus on being a life coach and getting out into the world and really helping to support people as best as I can.

Michael: 00:10:59

To, you know, I use the terminology of.

Michael: 00:11:02

Or the acronym of fly, which is fly, which is to first love yourself.

Michael: 00:11:08

Because I realized that when I did that, that was the real game changer for me.

Host: 00:11:15

It's so true.

Michael: 00:11:16

Yeah, that's how I got here.

Host: 00:11:20

Amazing.

Host: 00:11:22

Oh, my goodness.

Host: 00:11:24

I always love hearing people's kind of lifeline, right?

Host: 00:11:29

The quick version of your life and how.

Host: 00:11:32

Where you started and how you got here.

Host: 00:11:34

I think it's so fascinating.

Host: 00:11:36

And there were a couple of things that really, really struck me as you were talking.

Host: 00:11:42

And one of them I'd already written down that I wanted to talk to you about the shadow belief and definitely want to touch on that some more.

Host: 00:11:50

But one thing that I thought as you were talking about those, really start creating them, becoming attached to them when we're young, so very young, and especially depending on kind of what's going on in your life as a child.

Host: 00:12:08

And I'M curious as to whether or not in your learning about these and studying that those are also kind of like survival techniques.

Michael: 00:12:21

100%, you're absolutely right.

Michael: 00:12:23

You know, the beliefs that we, you know, when, when we're children, we form that belief.

Michael: 00:12:29

It's a way that we then learn how to navigate through life.

Michael: 00:12:34

So it becomes our protective, you know, it's.

Michael: 00:12:37

It's our survival mechanism.

Michael: 00:12:39

Exactly.

Michael: 00:12:40

You know, so if I can think the world isn't safe, then I.

Michael: 00:12:46

I'm always on guard.

Michael: 00:12:47

You know, I always say, even, you know, I did a men's group this week and I said to them, I still read the room.

Michael: 00:12:53

I walk in a room and I read it.

Michael: 00:12:56

And I'm not saying that everyone doesn't do that.

Michael: 00:12:59

On some level, I do it for.

Host: 00:13:00

My own safety, right?

Michael: 00:13:02

I look around and go, is anyone going to make fun of me?

Michael: 00:13:05

Is someone.

Michael: 00:13:06

Even if no one's necessarily going to do that, I still play those tapes and go, am I going to be accepted?

Michael: 00:13:12

Is this going to be okay for me?

Michael: 00:13:14

So that still became.

Michael: 00:13:16

Becomes sort of how I'm navigating through life now.

Michael: 00:13:20

The beauty for me is that I can go, oh, there's that shadow belief, right?

Michael: 00:13:24

Let me just put it to the side.

Michael: 00:13:26

You're safe, you know, and then I evidence in the opposite, right?

Michael: 00:13:32

I'll make sure I talk to people and I feel good about the interaction so that then I have more evidence that, you know, I can be safe when I walk in a room.

Michael: 00:13:42

But it is definitely something that becomes our natural navigating system until we realize that it no longer serves us.

Michael: 00:13:52

And that usually happens in adulthood when, when you just realize that you're just not okay and life is not okay.

Michael: 00:13:59

And luckily you not luckily, hopefully you have the desire to go and get some help.

Michael: 00:14:06

And when you do, you know, when you discover these kinds of things, that's when then you can shift.

Michael: 00:14:12

And when you make those shifts and let it, you know, I always say, is it controlling you or are you controlling it?

Michael: 00:14:20

So when you can control it, it becomes much more comfortable.

Michael: 00:14:25

Because then you could just say, oh, yeah, there you are.

Michael: 00:14:28

Don't worry, I got this right?

Host: 00:14:31

Oh, my goodness.

Host: 00:14:32

A hundred percent, 100%.

Host: 00:14:35

And two, I think, you know, on top of that, is that.

Host: 00:14:38

Or the first step of that really is that awareness, right?

Host: 00:14:43

Because that's such.

Host: 00:14:44

I know for me and for a lot of people that I've worked with walk through life for so long kind of unaware, right?

Host: 00:14:53

There's all this stuff going on and.

Host: 00:14:56

But you're unaware of how it got there that you even can do something about it.

Host: 00:15:01

You just know that you feel not right.

Host: 00:15:05

Right.

Host: 00:15:06

And, you know, whatever you're feeling word is for that for yourself.

Host: 00:15:10

And so having that awareness to be like, oh, okay, that's what that is.

Host: 00:15:16

And I love that because I do that too.

Host: 00:15:18

Like, all of a sudden, I'll catch, you know, I'm doing that thing where I'm, you know, one of, one of my big techniques was to, like, always survey everything and to know, like, the, you know, three possible outcomes of any situation and work it through in my head so I knew what all the outcomes could possibly be.

Host: 00:15:37

And then whatever happens, I will already know.

Host: 00:15:39

Right.

Host: 00:15:40

I didn't realize I was doing that all the time.

Host: 00:15:43

I mean, no wonder I was exhausted.

Host: 00:15:47

But now it's such a gift to be like, oh, I know what that thing is.

Host: 00:15:52

I know what you're doing.

Host: 00:15:53

Like, enough.

Host: 00:15:54

It's okay.

Host: 00:15:55

I'm good.

Host: 00:15:56

We're safe.

Host: 00:15:56

Everything's fine.

Host: 00:15:57

Right.

Host: 00:15:57

You know, whatever your internal dialogue turns out to be.

Host: 00:16:00

So I do love that.

Host: 00:16:02

I think that's so interesting and I really thank you for sharing that.

Host: 00:16:06

The name of that book, the Shadow Process by Debbie Ford, and that's also the institute that you worked with to get your certification.

Michael: 00:16:14

And just for clarification, the book is called the Dark side of the Light Chasers.

Michael: 00:16:19

If you read book, the back end was called the Shadow Process.

Host: 00:16:24

Gotcha.

Host: 00:16:24

Okay.

Michael: 00:16:25

But the, the book, it's on it.

Michael: 00:16:27

You know, it's, it's very popular.

Michael: 00:16:29

If you just.

Michael: 00:16:29

It's on Amazon lots of places.

Michael: 00:16:31

It's called the Dark side of the Light Chasers.

Michael: 00:16:33

And from there you'll learn about the shadow.

Host: 00:16:38

That's.

Host: 00:16:38

So I've, you know, I've heard it mentioned in different contexts, and I never was quite.

Michael: 00:16:44

And I think it was Carl Jung who actually sort of brought it to light, so to speak.

Host: 00:16:50

Sure.

Michael: 00:16:51

And Debbie took it.

Michael: 00:16:52

And now I'm, again, I'm working with the Levin Life Coach Institute.

Michael: 00:16:55

Nancy Levin has also taken it a lot of work around the shadow as well.

Michael: 00:17:01

And she's training coaches out there, people who want to get out there and support people in the shadow and other things as well.

Michael: 00:17:08

So.

Michael: 00:17:09

But, you know, when, when you realize that those shadows are there, so much of life begins to make sense, Heather.

Michael: 00:17:17

Because then you can go in and we say, you know, we, we sort of say we want to uncover them or bust them open.

Michael: 00:17:23

And then the intention is to go in and shift your, your understanding of, of how life Truly is like, then it's what's fact and what's fiction, you know, so we actually go back to what we.

Michael: 00:17:37

We call the origin point.

Michael: 00:17:39

Like when you actually made that commitment, when you embraced that the world was not safe.

Host: 00:17:46

Right.

Michael: 00:17:46

And we look at it through the eye of the child and we realize that we're looking at it through the eye of a child.

Michael: 00:17:51

And then we reinterpret the situation as an adult and we say, okay, so.

Michael: 00:17:57

Or even as a teenager.

Michael: 00:17:58

Okay, so is this really still true?

Host: 00:18:01

Right.

Michael: 00:18:02

Does this still hold truth?

Michael: 00:18:04

Or is it something that we can change and we could look at the situation differently and that's what you work through them.

Michael: 00:18:11

It's not quite as simple as 1, 2, 3, like that, but.

Host: 00:18:14

No, it's not.

Host: 00:18:15

But that is basically.

Host: 00:18:16

Yeah, that is exactly right.

Host: 00:18:18

That is how it.

Host: 00:18:19

I mean, there's a lot.

Host: 00:18:20

And it's.

Host: 00:18:21

Everything's intertwined, right?

Michael: 00:18:23

Yes, absolutely.

Michael: 00:18:25

We don't realize that so many of our habits and behaviors and those types of things are driven by our beliefs, essentially.

Michael: 00:18:34

You know, so.

Michael: 00:18:35

So often it's just helping.

Michael: 00:18:37

For me, it's helping clients just look at your behavior and that's going to tell you so much about what you believe.

Host: 00:18:46

Right.

Michael: 00:18:46

And your outward world is an expression of your internal world.

Michael: 00:18:52

So whatever you're feeling inside is going to actually be out pictured there.

Michael: 00:18:56

So if you're.

Michael: 00:18:57

If you're feeling anxiety or stress, like, look outside and see where is there unrest and unsettled in my world.

Michael: 00:19:06

And then what can I do to settle it down?

Michael: 00:19:09

What do I need to do?

Host: 00:19:10

Right, right.

Host: 00:19:12

What tools do I need or what?

Host: 00:19:13

You know, that's where all of the.

Host: 00:19:15

Having tools at hand or being able to recognize and name the whole.

Host: 00:19:23

Just be able to name these things is so incredibly helpful.

Michael: 00:19:26

Yes.

Michael: 00:19:27

And as I always said, I wish that I had that when I was, you know, 18 years old, you know, like when I was much younger, so that I can.

Michael: 00:19:35

I could have left it behind and move forward.

Host: 00:19:39

Yes.

Host: 00:19:40

Goodness.

Host: 00:19:41

I would have settled for it, you know, at 30.

Host: 00:19:44

Right.

Michael: 00:19:45

Okay.

Michael: 00:19:46

I'll even take that.

Host: 00:19:47

Sure.

Host: 00:20:45

I think I would have known much better what to do with it at 30 than maybe at 18.

Host: 00:20:49

But still.

Host: 00:20:50

Oh, my goodness.

Host: 00:20:51

Yes, I do have that.

Host: 00:20:52

I'm like, why did it have to take so long for me to learn these things?

Host: 00:20:57

And then, of course, now, as you.

Host: 00:20:59

I'm sure you're the same way.

Host: 00:21:00

The more you learn, the more you want to learn, the more you want to uncover and the more you want to just continually like when you realize that you can do so much to grow and to evolve and then help others grow and evolve.

Michael: 00:21:15

Wow.

Michael: 00:21:15

Yeah.

Michael: 00:21:16

Coolest thing.

Michael: 00:21:17

Yeah.

Michael: 00:21:17

Because the thing, you know, it's like, yeah, what I'd love to do it at 18, would I love to do it at 30.

Michael: 00:21:22

But for me to be as in alignment with the people that I work with, I also feel like I needed the journey for.

Host: 00:21:35

Sure.

Host: 00:21:35

That's part of what makes you so relatable.

Host: 00:21:37

Right, Right.

Michael: 00:21:38

Yeah.

Michael: 00:21:38

Because my thing too is, and I always say this to people I work with as well, if you don't understand the dark, you can't appreciate the light.

Host: 00:21:49

Right.

Michael: 00:21:49

Got to know both.

Michael: 00:21:50

So I know for myself, so much of that was my journey.

Michael: 00:21:54

That was my hero's journey, so to speak.

Michael: 00:21:56

You know, Joseph Campbell, hero's Journey.

Michael: 00:21:58

There we go.

Michael: 00:21:58

You know, it's like, I know that that was my journey to go out and to live this life that I just was sort of traipsing through, ultimately knowing that I wasn't okay.

Michael: 00:22:13

And then, you know, again, so fortunate to find the path, which then led me to spiritual centers and spiritual travel and all kinds of things that really has helped me turn it all inside, where I know that's really where the wisdom lies.

Michael: 00:22:29

So the more we can, you know, guide ourself, and then, you know what I love Lady Gaga always says, you know, the more we can love ourself, then it becomes infectious for the rest of the world.

Michael: 00:22:43

And, you know, that's.

Michael: 00:22:46

It's so true and so key because everything can shift when we're okay with who we are, when we're not.

Michael: 00:22:54

We can't really be.

Michael: 00:22:56

We can't show up the way we really would love to show up or authentically show up when we are having all of this thunderstorm inside of us as well.

Host: 00:23:05

Right, right.

Host: 00:23:07

That is so incredibly true.

Host: 00:23:11

And I think too, you know, circling back to the understanding the dark, embracing the dark so we can appreciate the light.

Host: 00:23:21

That.

Host: 00:23:21

That's a big piece.

Host: 00:23:22

Is actually being able to.

Host: 00:23:23

I mean, that sounds kind of like, oh, of course.

Host: 00:23:26

Well, that's really hard to do.

Host: 00:23:29

Right.

Host: 00:23:30

I mean, to.

Host: 00:23:31

Actually, I'm just thinking of, you know, certain.

Host: 00:23:33

Certain people in my lifetime that I have known how difficult that that would be for them.

Michael: 00:23:44

That.

Host: 00:23:44

That.

Host: 00:23:45

That is just something that I don't, you know, I don't know that they will ever do because that.

Host: 00:23:52

It's hard and you have to be super vulnerable.

Host: 00:23:56

And there's a lot of work that goes into that.

Host: 00:24:00

But, you know, again, to your point.

Host: 00:24:02

It is incredibly worth it.

Michael: 00:24:04

Yeah, it is.

Michael: 00:24:05

I mean, that's.

Michael: 00:24:06

You know, it's.

Michael: 00:24:08

You know, one of the things that I've become aware of recently is that so many.

Michael: 00:24:12

You know, because I've been dealing, I've been working a lot.

Michael: 00:24:15

I've been exploring a lot with shame and trauma and, you know, the effect of that on the LGBTQ community.

Michael: 00:24:23

And, you know, so much.

Michael: 00:24:26

So much writing and so many things that I've realized is that so many people can go through life completely unaware and stuck and in this sort of.

Michael: 00:24:36

On that hamster wheel of self abuse and shame and, you know, and never.

Michael: 00:24:41

Never want to.

Michael: 00:24:43

Never feel like or, you know, want to take the time to say, well, what can I do for me?

Michael: 00:24:49

You know, they will actually go through a lifetime, as you're saying, without any inner peace.

Host: 00:24:55

Yeah.

Michael: 00:24:56

And some of it, unfortunately, is because, you know, outwardly, the world also tells us, as gay men, you know, in the LGBT community, you know, that there's something inherently wrong with us.

Michael: 00:25:07

Not everyone, for sure, but there is still a collective consciousness.

Host: 00:25:13

Right.

Michael: 00:25:14

That holds many people in.

Michael: 00:25:17

In that victim consciousness, and they don't ever really get the opportunity to work through that.

Michael: 00:25:25

And I know people who will go to their grave that way.

Michael: 00:25:31

It's very interesting when you think about that, and.

Michael: 00:25:35

And you're right.

Michael: 00:25:36

Like, how many people will never really even contemplate because it's almost too scary.

Michael: 00:25:41

Like, what is light?

Michael: 00:25:42

What is dark?

Michael: 00:25:42

What is that all about?

Michael: 00:25:43

It's too scary.

Michael: 00:25:44

I don't.

Michael: 00:25:44

I don't want to know that stuff.

Host: 00:25:46

Right, Exactly.

Host: 00:25:47

I'm fine.

Host: 00:25:48

I'm fine.

Michael: 00:25:49

Right.

Host: 00:25:49

I'll just.

Michael: 00:25:49

I'll go on, as I call it, autopilot, and I will just continue to slide through life and do my thing, and.

Michael: 00:25:58

But inwardly, I knew, for me, I couldn't do it.

Michael: 00:26:00

I couldn't anymore.

Host: 00:26:03

Well, and I think when I had this, you know, for.

Host: 00:26:06

For me, when I had this revelation and started on this path is.

Host: 00:26:10

It was such.

Host: 00:26:11

I was so blown away that all of this was available to me, that I had all of these choices suddenly that I never realized I had.

Host: 00:26:21

So I was like, oh, I can do this.

Host: 00:26:24

You know, I'm allowed to take care of myself, or, you know, I'm allowed to take time to learn.

Host: 00:26:30

And.

Host: 00:26:30

And that actually wasn't okay.

Host: 00:26:33

Like, that's not the way everybody grows up or whatever, you know, Whatever.

Michael: 00:26:38

Right, right, right.

Host: 00:26:39

So I think, you know, there's also that where you're just like, holy cow, this is extraordinary.

Host: 00:26:45

And I want everybody to Feel this way.

Heather Hester: 00:26:48

It.

Host: 00:26:49

Yes, it can be scary, but the other side of it is so worth it.

Host: 00:26:56

So that's, you know, that's a joke.

Michael: 00:27:00

And say, like, once I became certified the first time in my coaching, I was like, they should give this away at the grocery store.

Michael: 00:27:08

You know, like, this is like.

Michael: 00:27:09

This is like something that should be handing out because it is life changing.

Host: 00:27:14

Right?

Host: 00:27:15

Yeah, I mean, it is.

Host: 00:27:18

It totally is.

Host: 00:27:20

Just so I really, I wanted, before I lose this, because I keep looking, I made a note.

Host: 00:27:25

I wanted to ask you, you had mentioned this, stages of shame.

Host: 00:27:30

And since we were kind of circling around that again right now, I wanted to ask you about that and if you could talk about that a little bit, because I do often talk about.

Host: 00:27:40

Actually I'm doing a series right now on the stages of coming out, which, of course, there's a lot of shame that's, you know, talked about and worked through in those stages, but this is even more specific.

Host: 00:27:51

So could you talk about that a little bit?

Michael: 00:27:52

Yeah.

Michael: 00:27:53

Again, I'm sort of in this exploration around it because I am in the process of writing a book and, you know, so much of it is about the, you know, working through my own shame, realizing what it was, realizing that it was there.

Michael: 00:28:08

And I, you know, a lot of it.

Michael: 00:28:10

I'm going to reference specifically the Velvet Rage.

Michael: 00:28:13

I don't know if you're familiar with that book by Alan Downs.

Host: 00:28:15

So good.

Michael: 00:28:16

He talks so much about shame and how it is this.

Michael: 00:28:21

This guttural core feeling inside of gay men.

Michael: 00:28:25

Again, he's.

Michael: 00:28:26

He's marginalizing, even within the community to gay men because that's the experience he has.

Michael: 00:28:30

Same thing myself, where, you know, he talks about stages of shame.

Michael: 00:28:35

And I, as.

Michael: 00:28:37

As I was learning and reading, I was like, wow, that was totally me.

Michael: 00:28:42

You know, the first, which is very common, is that, you know, when we were.

Michael: 00:28:47

We're younger, we sort of are in the avoidance stage where we're like, this is.

Michael: 00:28:53

That's not me.

Michael: 00:28:54

You know, like, I can't be that way, even though deep down inside we know something is different.

Michael: 00:29:00

So everything is done to fit the norm, so to speak.

Michael: 00:29:06

You're going to dress a certain way, you're going to act a certain way.

Michael: 00:29:09

You're going to go, you're going to join the football team, you're going to, you know, go to the dances, you're going to have a girlfriend, possibly.

Michael: 00:29:18

You're going to do things that are just in a way for you to avoid what might possibly be going on.

Host: 00:29:25

Right.

Michael: 00:29:26

And that is really just a way of pushing down all your emotions.

Michael: 00:29:32

But ultimately, you know, again, something is not completely in alignment with everyone else.

Host: 00:29:39

Right.

Michael: 00:29:40

So that's when you really learn to navigate and to.

Michael: 00:29:43

In this first stage where you learn to navigate your life.

Michael: 00:29:46

And I know for me, I did that and it was interesting.

Michael: 00:29:49

As I look back, all of my friends in high school, with the exception of two, were all girls because that was my safe place, right.

Michael: 00:29:58

And they all thought I was fun and, you know, that kind of thing and, you know, and it was easy and.

Michael: 00:30:04

But like I was going to avoid gym, I was avoiding locker rooms, I was never going to be in any of those kinds of situations, but I went to the prom, I did all of that kind of thing.

Michael: 00:30:15

So that first stage is pretty influential until you sort of leave the home, if you will.

Michael: 00:30:22

Perhaps you go to college or, you know, you, you go out and work and, and you're suddenly in a different place.

Michael: 00:30:28

And he calls the stage two, which I love is the overcompensation stage, where you, the shame is almost like your drug and you used it to motivate you to move forward in your life.

Michael: 00:30:46

And, and that's when you will see so many gay men who are very high paid, who have many degrees, who are fashion designers, who have big cars and vacation homes and, you know, all of those things.

Michael: 00:31:00

They have the perfect body, you know, they, you know, are the social light.

Michael: 00:31:05

You know, I always used to say I was the funnest person in the room.

Michael: 00:31:08

The only person that was not having a good time was me.

Host: 00:31:12

Right.

Michael: 00:31:12

But everyone else was having a great time.

Michael: 00:31:14

Outwardly, I looked like the life of the party and I had a beautiful apartment and I had more than one home and at homes and a great car and a great job.

Michael: 00:31:25

And all you do is overcompensate, compensate.

Michael: 00:31:30

And you use that as, this is my belief, you use it as sort of like a hit on it from a drug almost where it's like, if I could just get that new car, then I'm okay for right now.

Michael: 00:31:44

But then that goes away and then if I could just get that new boyfriend, then look at me, I'm okay, you know, so there's that overcompensation stage that many men live through their entire life and never can get out of that stage.

Host: 00:31:59

Right.

Michael: 00:32:00

Because we don't realize that it's there.

Host: 00:32:02

Yeah.

Michael: 00:32:03

So when you can embrace yourself, when you get to the point, and honestly, a lot of times, you know, it's about like, I just can't go out one more day.

Michael: 00:32:15

And try and dress up and look this way, and it's like, because you're so inauthentic on so many levels that you.

Michael: 00:32:22

You just can't do it anymore, and you realize that you need to shift.

Michael: 00:32:28

And again, for me, I was very fortunate to find that weekend workshop.

Michael: 00:32:31

You know, there are lots and lots of resources to help, to help.

Michael: 00:32:36

And again, you don't have to wait like I did until, you know, I was 50 years old.

Michael: 00:32:41

You could do it much younger, where you can really look inside and return to yourself.

Michael: 00:32:46

And when we can, when we do that inner work and you allow yourself to acknowledge the shame, to work with the shame, to realize what motivates it, that's when you sort of move into the next step, which is more of an acceptance, and you realize that just being you exactly as you are is enough, and it's perfect.

Michael: 00:33:13

And that's when, again, you learn to control the shame versus it controlling you.

Host: 00:33:19

Right.

Michael: 00:33:19

Yeah.

Michael: 00:33:20

Because I'm not going to say that the shame doesn't still pop up for me, because it does.

Michael: 00:33:23

You know, I still can be that little boy on the playground with people calling me fat and stupid and a sissy, and I can hear it, and I can go right back to it.

Michael: 00:33:31

Almost like I could see the clothes I was wearing.

Michael: 00:33:35

Now I can quickly march in and go, that is not your truth.

Michael: 00:33:40

You do not have to hold this any longer.

Host: 00:33:43

That's right.

Host: 00:33:45

Yeah.

Michael: 00:33:46

So that's a little bit about the stages.

Michael: 00:33:47

There's lots more.

Michael: 00:33:49

But, you know, the.

Michael: 00:33:51

The.

Michael: 00:33:51

The shame part is.

Michael: 00:33:52

Is huge.

Host: 00:33:54

Well, it is.

Host: 00:33:55

It's such a huge part that I think it's important, you know, anytime we have a chance to discuss it, talk about it.

Host: 00:34:03

Right.

Host: 00:34:03

Bring it out into the light.

Michael: 00:34:04

And I'm gonna say that.

Michael: 00:34:05

Bring it to the light, please.

Michael: 00:34:07

Bring it to the light.

Michael: 00:34:08

Even if you're.

Michael: 00:34:09

You're talking to, you know, if you're a parent talking to a child who's coming out and you want to be supportive.

Michael: 00:34:15

Supportive, like just acknowledge it, you know, not in a shameful way, but just acknowledge the feelings that could potentially, and I underline that be there that are associated to how they are navigating their life currently.

Host: 00:34:33

Right, right, Exactly.

Host: 00:34:38

Oh, my goodness.

Host: 00:34:39

Thank you for sharing that.

Host: 00:34:40

I really appreciate it.

Host: 00:34:43

You had mentioned a little bit ago your kind of your.

Host: 00:34:47

Your secret sauce for your coaching program or the coaching that you do is the acronym fly.

Host: 00:34:55

And I'd love to talk about that a little bit before we wrap up today, because I think that's so cool and I love that you.

Host: 00:35:02

That is such a key, very key piece of being able to really step into your life.

Host: 00:35:10

So.

Michael: 00:35:11

Yes.

Michael: 00:35:13

Yeah.

Michael: 00:35:13

So I use the acronym fly Fly.

Michael: 00:35:16

You know, first love.

Michael: 00:35:17

And oftentimes, like at the end of a reel or in my email, weekly email, you know, I'll always say, remember, you have wings to fly.

Michael: 00:35:25

First love yourself.

Michael: 00:35:27

Because when I realized, because this was a big thing for me, to have, a person who I needed to learn to love was me.

Michael: 00:35:34

And I did not love me because the world didn't love me in my mind.

Michael: 00:35:41

So when people tried to love me, I couldn't be loved.

Host: 00:35:46

No.

Michael: 00:35:47

Because I didn't even understand what it was.

Michael: 00:35:49

So after I went inside, the person I fell in love with the most was really me.

Michael: 00:35:53

And then I was able to see everything different and navigate life completely different.

Michael: 00:35:59

You know, I was able to love and accept myself completely.

Michael: 00:36:03

And I always say, exactly as you are.

Host: 00:36:06

Yes.

Michael: 00:36:07

No matter what it looks like, it's right and perfect.

Michael: 00:36:12

So when you could first love yourself, then you are in a position also to love other people.

Michael: 00:36:19

And I don't mean just romantic love.

Michael: 00:36:21

I'm just talking about love life in general.

Michael: 00:36:24

Be there to support people living from a place of love versus a place of fear was the big game changer for me in my life.

Host: 00:36:35

I love that.

Host: 00:36:36

That is wonderful.

Host: 00:36:38

Before we wrap up, I would love if you could offer either words of advice or words of wisdom to either a young person coming out or the parent of a young person coming out, or both.

Michael: 00:36:56

Sure, I would love to.

Michael: 00:36:57

So, of course, first love yourself.

Michael: 00:36:59

Can't forget that one.

Host: 00:37:01

Exactly.

Michael: 00:37:02

For, you know, for those who are in that space of if I come out, then what happens?

Michael: 00:37:09

You know, Find your.

Michael: 00:37:11

Find your safe harbor.

Michael: 00:37:13

There is someone out there who is your safe harbor.

Michael: 00:37:16

You may not even know who they are, but they're out there.

Michael: 00:37:20

And the.

Michael: 00:37:21

And allow yourself to start there and allow your voice to sort of practice to be there to allow yourself to say, this is who I am.

Host: 00:37:37

Right.

Michael: 00:37:38

It doesn't have to be necessarily run out and swing the doors open of whatever or raise the biggest flag or whatever it needs to be.

Michael: 00:37:47

Do it in your way and do it in a way that you feel safe, even if it takes a long time.

Michael: 00:37:56

It doesn't have to be an overnight thing, but give yourself the opportunity to find your inner strength first.

Michael: 00:38:06

Go inside.

Michael: 00:38:07

If you need to meditate or journal or whatever.

Michael: 00:38:11

Go out in nature, you know, and just find a space within yourself that can give you enough courage.

Michael: 00:38:19

And then find that safe harbor to have that conversation.

Michael: 00:38:21

There's so many organizations in the United States, so many places where people are there to support you.

Michael: 00:38:26

If you don't have a loving space within your family dynamic, and even with your family, it doesn't have to be this, let's sit everyone down, you know, like, do it as you feel it's necessary.

Michael: 00:38:38

Yes.

Michael: 00:38:39

So that you're safe.

Michael: 00:38:41

And then on the flip side of that, if you're a parent, you know, just hold space.

Michael: 00:38:47

Even if you are really wrestling with it inside, just hold space for the news.

Michael: 00:38:56

And even if you need to take a pause by just saying, you know, thank you for that, you know, I love you and it might not be that easy, but, you know, thank you for that.

Michael: 00:39:08

Just give me a couple of minutes to process this or, you know, realize as a parent, this person, this child has known this for a long time.

Michael: 00:39:19

And I know Heather talks about this in her coming up because I listened to them all.

Michael: 00:39:25

You don't necessarily, you may have an inkling, you know, my mother said I always knew.

Michael: 00:39:30

Well, I wish you would have said something.

Host: 00:39:32

You know, it would have been helpful.

Host: 00:39:35

Yeah.

Michael: 00:39:36

So that's what I'm saying.

Michael: 00:39:37

If you get that opportunity and you, and, and, and, and your child is coming to you, just being a space to listen and just to be there.

Michael: 00:39:47

Don't feel like you need to fix anything, ask questions.

Michael: 00:39:51

You don't need to also even say, I'm okay with this because it's not about you being okay with it, it's about them being okay with it.

Michael: 00:39:59

It, you know, just be in a space of whatever you need to do to let them know that you are there.

Host: 00:40:06

Yes.

Michael: 00:40:07

Yes.

Host: 00:40:08

Thank you.

Host: 00:40:09

I love that answer.

Michael: 00:40:11

Even that was a long one.

Michael: 00:40:12

That's okay.

Host: 00:40:14

No, as well, it was, it was filled with very important, all very important pieces of information.

Host: 00:40:22

So thank you.

Host: 00:40:23

Thank you.

Host: 00:40:24

And I think also pieces of information that bear repeating often.

Host: 00:40:30

So I do appreciate each one of those things you shared.

Host: 00:40:35

Before we wrap up, is there anything that you would like to add or share or just say?

Host: 00:40:42

In fact, I would love for you to let people know exactly where they could find you.

Host: 00:40:46

I mean, I'll have it all in the show notes as well, but at the very least let people know that.

Michael: 00:40:52

Yeah, that would be great.

Michael: 00:40:53

I would, you know, Certainly my website, michaelmamina.com on there, I highly recommend you get my ebook, which is really like, it's five, five minute steps to the life you desire, not just for adults.

Michael: 00:41:06

It can also be great for teens as well.

Michael: 00:41:09

You can find Me on Instagram, on Michael Momina, same thing.

Michael: 00:41:13

Facebook.

Michael: 00:41:13

And I have now done the TikTok world.

Michael: 00:41:17

So you can find me in the TikTok world, fumbling all over the place.

Michael: 00:41:24

Ichael Mamina.

Michael: 00:41:25

Or it says coach Michael.

Michael: 00:41:26

Michael Mamina.

Michael: 00:41:28

You know, just exploring that world too.

Michael: 00:41:30

So.

Michael: 00:41:30

But if you go to my website, that's really the best place you can receive a weekly email.

Michael: 00:41:36

I'm just.

Michael: 00:41:37

This was just beautiful.

Michael: 00:41:38

Thank you for giving me the space to actually let my story be heard and seen as well.

Michael: 00:41:46

You know, again, I would just say my.

Michael: 00:41:49

My final thoughts are everyone, not just people within the LGBTQ community should really learn to fly and love themselves, but most importantly, live their life authentically exactly as they are.

Michael: 00:42:09

And if you cannot do that, reach out.

Michael: 00:42:13

There are so many resources out there to support.

Michael: 00:42:17

You know, I don't believe for a minute we were put on this planet to do it alone.

Michael: 00:42:22

So it, you know, if you don't do it, ask yourself why you don't do it and then go do it.

Michael: 00:42:29

You know, like, you know, so find what you need to get the best life you possibly can.

Michael: 00:42:37

And it's never too late and it's never too soon.

Host: 00:42:41

Thank you.

Michael: 00:42:42

Thank you.

Michael: 00:42:42

Thank you so much.

Heather Hester: 00:42:45

Thanks so much for joining me today.

Heather Hester: 00:42:48

If you enjoyed today's episode, I would be so grateful.

Heather Hester: 00:42:53

For a rating or a review.

Heather Hester: 00:42:55

Click on the link in the show notes or go to my website, chrysalismama.com to stay up to date on my latest resources as well as to learn how you can work with me.

Heather Hester: 00:43:08

Please share this podcast with anyone who needs to know that they are not alone.

Heather Hester: 00:43:14

And remember to just breathe until next time.