Episode 103
Navigating Queer Life: Insights from Life Coach David Devore
Get ready for an intense journey of self-discovery and healing as we welcome David Devore, a psychotherapist and wellness coach. Listen in as David unravels his personal spiritual journey, shedding light on the struggles of coming to terms with his queer identity and how internalized homophobia and shame were affecting his life. His transformative experience has equipped him to work effectively with the LGBTQIA community, offering insights and support from a place of empathy and understanding.
We also focus on the importance of parental support for queer children. Our conversation with David delves into the complexities of shame, religion, and LGBTQ+ children, highlighting the potential damage the heteronormative narrative of religion can cause. We stress the significance of creating a safe and supportive space for children to express their identity, the role of education in fighting homophobia, and how parents can prepare themselves for this important conversation.
David discusses the significance of grace, understanding, and readiness to learn for parents navigating this sensitive terrain. Listen in to understand the potential effects of rejection, shunning ceremonies, and addiction that many queer youth face, and the immense power of support, acceptance, and open conversations. The profound connection between a parent and child can be maintained, despite the imperfections, as long as the conversation stays open and filled with love.
About our Guest:
David DeVore is a life coach specializing in the challenges of queer life such as coming out, internalized homophobia, and shame. David embarked upon a spiritual journey in his early 40s in response to midlife/existential crisis. He discovered that internalized homophobia and shame had been holding him back in all areas of his life, by negatively coloring the lens of his perspective. This cathartic moment ignited David's passion for the work he does with the LGBTQIA community today. David is a former masters level psychotherapist, and wellness coach. He enjoys hot yoba and meditation.
https://www.tiktok.com/@coachdevore
https://www.instagram.com/coachdevore/
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Takeaways:
- Coming out is a personal journey for each individual, not about others' expectations.
- Parents should approach their child's coming out with love, compassion, and openness.
- Recognizing and addressing one's own fears can help foster a supportive environment.
- Education about LGBTQIA+ experiences is crucial for parents to understand their children better.
- Internalized homophobia can deeply affect an individual's mental health and happiness.
- Creating a safe space for dialogue can strengthen the parent-child relationship during coming out.
Transcript
Welcome to Just Breathe.
Heather Hester:I am so happy you are here today and have taken a little time out of your day to listen while you're walking or cooking or driving or whatever you may be up to.
Heather Hester:So, so grateful you are here today.
Heather Hester:I have a really, really interesting guest and just fascinating human who has had quite a life's journey and shares it with us today.
Heather Hester:And I am just so grateful because I like to get and I like to be able to share with you all perspective from all different types of people and people who have come out at all different times, their lives and had different coming out experiences and then share whether that coming out had any effect on their life's purpose.
Heather Hester:And it just so happens that it did on this person.
Heather Hester:Really, really, really excited for you to listen into our conversation.
Heather Hester:So I'll just give you a quick introduction to David Devore, who is a life coach who specializes now in the challenges of queer life, such as coming out, internalized homophobia and shame.
Heather Hester:David embarked upon a spiritual journey in his early 40s in response to midlife existential crisis.
Heather Hester:He discovered that internalized homophobia and shame had been holding him back in all areas of his life by negatively coloring the lens of his perspective.
Heather Hester:This cathartic moment ignited David's passion for the work he does with the LGBTQIA community today.
Heather Hester:David is a master level psychotherapist and wellness coach.
Heather Hester:So without further ado, take a listen to our conversation.
Heather Hester:Welcome to Just Breathe Parenting, your LGBTQ team, the podcast transforming the conversation around loving and raising an LGBTQ child.
Heather Hester:My name is Heather Hester and I am so grateful you are here.
Heather Hester:I want you to take a deep breath and know that for the time we are together, you are in the safety of the Just Breathe nest.
Heather Hester:Whether today's show is an amazing guest or me sharing stories, resources, strategies, or lessons I've learned along our journey, I want you to feel like we're just hanging out at a coffee shop, having a cozy chat.
Heather Hester:Most of all, I want you to remember that wherever you are on this journey right now, in this moment in time, you are not alone.
Heather Hester:Welcome, David.
Heather Hester:I am so happy you are here today.
Heather Hester:And I'm.
David Devore:I'm so excited to be here to meet you.
David Devore:I'm so excited about the work that you're doing.
David Devore:It's so incredibly valued and important in our community.
Heather Hester:Thank you.
Heather Hester:Thank you.
Heather Hester:Thank you so much.
Heather Hester:That really, that does mean a lot.
Heather Hester:And just thank you.
David Devore:You're welcome.
Heather Hester:I've been looking forward to this conversation because I think that you have such a Unique perspective.
Heather Hester:And you're doing very interesting work as well and just really would love to hear what kind of the big, like the big question.
Heather Hester:You talk about this a lot on TikTok.
Heather Hester:TikTok plug.
Heather Hester:FYI, who am I?
Heather Hester:The big question, who am I?
Heather Hester:That was a big changing question for you in your life.
David Devore:Yes.
David Devore:I had, I guess, what you would consider to be the midlife crisis, existential crisis in my early 40s, where I recognized that I wasn't really showing my life fully.
David Devore:I felt like I was sort of just walking on the parameter of my life and sort of just dipping into it.
David Devore:But I wasn't really invested.
David Devore:And my.
David Devore:In my relationship.
David Devore:I had been with a man for 12 years and I felt like I wasn't fully trusting of him and that I was sort of faking it, sort of playing.
David Devore:And I was wondering why that was and why I was feeling sort of stuck in my life.
David Devore:And I knew there had to be something more.
David Devore:And then it really came up like, well, who am I and why am I experiencing this way?
David Devore:And how do I find a way to have more joy in my life, to feel more engaged in my life, to be more purpose driven?
David Devore:And that led me into a spiritual journey.
David Devore:And I had always been on a spiritual path, but I really made a very conscious effort to work on this.
David Devore:So I started following gurus and reading books and going to retreats and doing workshops.
David Devore:And I ended up in India at this really intensive spiritual retreat.
David Devore:And during this retreat, in a contemplation.
David Devore:And it was intense.
David Devore:It was like six in the morning till two in the morning sometimes.
David Devore:Spiritual practices, teachings, contemplations, it really, really pushed me.
David Devore:But I began to see the ways in which the messages that I received about being gay as a child, the thousands of messages, the things that I heard on tv, the thing that I heard my mother say in the station wagon, the thing that my father used to say at dinner, just these little comments that they had been stored up within me, that I'd repressed them, but yet they were incredibly active in my perception.
David Devore:They were literally coloring the lens of my perception in life in all areas and holding me back and making me feel stuck.
David Devore:And I came to see that I had developed masks that I was wearing to survive my life as a gay boy, to fit in, to be more like everybody else, because all I wanted was love and acceptance, which is what we all want, right?
David Devore:And that when I made that discovery, I realized that I wasn't really presenting as my authentic self because I had become habituated to be more masculine, to be less sensitive, to be less empathic.
David Devore:And that some of the gifts that naturally came from me being gay in the challenges of gay life, such as that sensitivity, I was pushing down because I thought that that would be unacceptable.
David Devore:Because I learned boys don't cry, boys aren't sensitive.
David Devore:And yet those are the gifts that I now have embraced and I'm leading with in the work that I do because it's so important in the field of doing, of coaching, and especially with gay men and the work that I do to have that sense of deeper compassion and empathy and understanding that we often get on the journey of a gay person when we are in a marginalized community and experience that kind of rejection, it opens our heart up to other marginalized communities and people on that path.
David Devore:And that's been the impetus for my work in a nutshell.
Heather Hester:That's amazing.
Heather Hester:So before, you were already doing kind of doing this kind of work, but you just really, really broadened, right?
Heather Hester:Like, opened your arms and embraced?
David Devore:Yes.
David Devore:Oh, my gosh.
David Devore:It changed everything.
David Devore:Because, you know, I started when I was 25 as a wellness coach and fitness trainer.
David Devore:When I.
David Devore:When I turned 30, I went back to graduate school to become a master's level therapist, psychotherapist.
David Devore:And in the beginning, I was very intellectual and very mind and body.
David Devore:But I was missing that spiritual connection for myself that I lost somewhere in my childhood because I felt abandoned by my Catholic upbringing and by my God.
David Devore:And I was trying to find that connection again.
David Devore:And that was another part of the reason that I went more deeply into the spiritual journey was realizing that that was missing.
David Devore:And then on the other side of it, I ended up working with a spiritual coach, and I did a lot of much deeper healing.
David Devore:So now in my practice and working with people, I can go much deeper with them faster because I've been there and because I know what that terrain looks like and I'm not afraid of it.
David Devore:And I can hold the space without judgment because I really do feel compassion because I can see it and I'm not afraid of it myself.
David Devore:Whereas in the past I was more intellectual and I was kind of afraid of getting into the nitty gritty because I would.
David Devore:Of my own fear about my own pain.
Heather Hester:Right?
David Devore:Yeah.
Heather Hester:Right?
David Devore:Yeah.
Heather Hester:Oh, that makes so much sense.
Heather Hester:Oh, my goodness.
Heather Hester:I mean, the levels deeper that you can go now are just extraordinary.
Heather Hester:And being able to touch on those topics of.
Heather Hester:I mean, kind of.
Heather Hester:I'm going to use different words that that whole idea of toxic masculinity all those things, right?
Heather Hester:Boys cry.
Heather Hester:Boys aren't sensitive.
Heather Hester:Boys aren't supposed to be.
Heather Hester:This, this and this toxic masculinity, which is just so dangerous for and for gay men in particular.
Heather Hester:But I, you know, widen that to be all men.
Heather Hester:I mean, I think that that is just so, so dangerous.
Heather Hester:Definitely.
Heather Hester:I mean, I think even mixed with the pieces of, you know, shame and all of that internalized, just stuff for your entire life.
Heather Hester:So can you talk a little bit about that process of, like, really, like, when you were beginning to pick it apart because you knew.
Heather Hester:I mean, I'm sure on an intellectual level, even all that time you knew there was stuff in there that you were like, we're not going there.
Heather Hester:That's just.
Heather Hester:No, but then once you started kind of like peeling away those layers and, like, what was that like?
Heather Hester:And what did you really.
David Devore:Like?
Heather Hester:How did you begin to come to terms with and heal and just let go of those things?
David Devore:Well, when I first became aware of it, I almost couldn't believe that it was, like, right under my nose, you know, like, it didn't make sense to me because I'm a pretty intuitive person.
David Devore:But I was so blindsided by the shame and internalized homophobia that my ego presentation, the mask that I created to survive my life, could not withstand shame.
David Devore:It couldn't, because I was in survival mode.
David Devore:Right.
David Devore:So the what.
David Devore:The way I was projecting myself into the world, that was way too vulnerable.
David Devore:And the first time that I actually went into that space, I consider it to be like this.
David Devore:A dark cavern that I created within myself that housed all of those experiences of feeling rejected by the world around me that I was desperately afraid to go into because of the pain of it.
David Devore:When I first was able to just say out loud that I actually hated myself for being gay as a child, that I wished it wouldn't happen.
David Devore:There was something really magical in that first recognition.
David Devore:It almost felt like that dark cavern that I had created.
David Devore:I realized that it wasn't a dark cavern and it was illuminated by light.
David Devore:And although it was painful and I felt the deep pain of that rejection, it was so freeing for me.
David Devore:Me to.
David Devore:It was a.
David Devore:It was a real step of authenticity for me because it was the first time I made a real emotional connection to those feelings that I had been hiding because I became habituated in survival to run through my life and not look back, to pretend that everything was okay and that I was okay.
David Devore:And it was those first steps of making that connection.
David Devore:And I came to see that I always had an anxiety Disorder.
David Devore:And that for me, the symptoms of shame very much mimic anxiety.
David Devore:And it's sort of like facing a fight or flight situation.
David Devore:I tend to run, I tend to pretend, or I used to pretend to, by anesthetizing myself, by numbing out in any way that I could.
David Devore:And when I became aware of that, I could see where those triggers came from.
David Devore:Does that make sense?
David Devore:And how they manifested in my body in terms of anxiety.
David Devore:And that became very powerful, because what I recognized is in this work is that as a queer person, part of the pathway and the journey is learning to accept and embrace our experiences of shame and homophobia and recognize the triggers in the way that they feel and also understand where they originally came from, and continuing to embrace the child that we once were as the adult, now as the hero who can come back and literally hold that child and say, yes, I'm going to listen to you.
David Devore:I'm going to stay with you.
David Devore:And I realized how much I had abandoned myself and that I was holding myself hostage in this dark cavern of bad me, this part of myself that I was so afraid of and what a disservice I did to myself.
David Devore:And it's this lifelong process I consider to be just such a part of the path of being queer that we come to it every day.
David Devore:And just like in my yoga practice, I come to it every day.
David Devore:Sometimes I might feel a little triggered.
David Devore:And I know how to come to myself and learn to embrace it and take the time out to acknowledge and recognize it and look at myself in the mirror and really develop a deeper sense of self, compassion and intimacy, which is very much what I teach with my clients.
Heather Hester:It is so wonderful.
Heather Hester:So really, it's something that.
Heather Hester:And it makes total sense to me as I'm, you know, as I'm listening to this, to what you're saying is that it's something that you are forever healing.
David Devore:Yes.
David Devore:I wanted to arrive at a place with this work where I could be like, I remember shame.
David Devore:I remember internalized homophobia.
David Devore:I know it really.
David Devore:It's terrible, but I have the solution.
David Devore:And then I would have a shame moment.
David Devore:I would have a shame storm.
David Devore:You know what I mean?
David Devore:And then I'd be like, oh, my gosh, should I talk about having shame?
David Devore:And then I remember talking to a friend, and he was like, don't talk about your shame experience.
David Devore:Aren't you supposed to be working with people and helping get rid of it?
David Devore:And then I had this aha moment that was like, you know, the human mind is sort of wired for Shame as we compare ourselves to other people and feel less than or more in those situations, the way that we evaluate ourselves and the ways in which we're different.
David Devore:And we all have a shame arsenal in our.
David Devore:In our mind, in terms of the experiences that we had that made us feel different, undeserving, unworthy, and unlovable.
David Devore:This is magnified often for LGBT TQ children because we are ostracized.
David Devore:We are often ostracized within religion and feeling like that we're going to hell, that we're the black sheep, you know, there's a whole moral judgment that also comes into it in terms of sexuality that further compounds the experience of shame, depending on where you.
David Devore:What kind of a religion I guess you grow up in.
David Devore:But many religions are condemning of it, of course, because they very much mimic the heteronormative narrative that has always been out there, which is the majority rules, and this is the way that it goes.
David Devore:And queer children, then, often, depending on how much they buy into that religious system, can feel such a tremendous sense of rejection and abandon and a sense of hopelessness.
David Devore:And this is why it's dangerous for children as they're processing who they are.
David Devore:And in school systems, where there is a lot of bullying that happens out there, that children have a place to feel a sense of support and love and unconditional love for who they are in a world that feels like it could be that it's continuously berating them.
David Devore:And that hopelessness that creates a real sense of separation and anxiety for a child is what can ultimately lead to teen suicides, as they feel that there's absolutely no hope.
David Devore:They're completely on their own.
David Devore:Nobody loves them, their family is rejecting them.
David Devore:Every.
David Devore:The world is rejecting them in their environment.
David Devore:And it's terrifying.
David Devore:And that's where the role of parents comes in.
David Devore:And why I'm so passionate about this and being here is that, you know, and that you're doing this work because.
David Devore:And I've actually been getting parents who come into my lives now who have questions about their queer children or, you know, queer children that are coming out.
David Devore:And it is.
David Devore:I can't even emphasize how powerful that relationship is for a child and how courageous a child has to be to come out, how terrifying it is in terms of the rejection that could happen and to really honor that as being one of the most beautiful experiences that you could ever have with your child in terms of bonding.
Heather Hester:Right.
Heather Hester:I mean, so we're so lucky.
David Devore:Yeah, it's.
Heather Hester:It's an honor.
David Devore:Yeah.
David Devore:Yeah.
Heather Hester:I mean, because 1,000% like the courage that it takes.
Heather Hester:And I didn't realize that at the time.
Heather Hester:You know, I mean, this is something that has been a.
Heather Hester:In hindsight or in retrospect, as I've learned things.
Heather Hester:But, you know, when.
Heather Hester:By the time that your child shares this information with you, this is something they have been thinking about and knowing about themselves for a long time.
David Devore:Yeah.
Heather Hester:And already all of that stuff that's been built up.
Heather Hester:Right.
Heather Hester:Already going, like, it's already stirring in there.
Heather Hester:So the way that we respond in the moment and in those first moments is really important.
David Devore:Yes, it really is.
David Devore:And that's why I think it's important for parents, if they suspect that their children are queer, to become educated about what it is to be queer.
David Devore:When I came out to my mother, she was really brilliant.
David Devore:When I came out to her, I have an amazing mother.
David Devore:But after I told her, and I was very emotional about it because I knew that she would.
David Devore:I was afraid she'd be disappointed in me.
David Devore:I was afraid that she'd be disappointed about, you know, the wife that I might have and the children and the life that she had dreamed for me.
David Devore:And she said, you know, David, I don't know very much about what it is to be gay.
David Devore:I don't think I know anyone who's gay.
David Devore:But all I know is that I love you and I'm going to learn.
David Devore:And she joined PFLAG on her own and she did her own research.
David Devore:And from that moment, we had a conversation about it that's continued on all of these years.
David Devore:And over time, she became more educated and had more experience around queer life.
David Devore:And so whatever homophobia that she had, just based on her limited experience, the answer to homophobia is education and knowledge.
David Devore:So when we say, as a queer person, that there's so much ignorance out there and we call people ignorant, I really mean it in a real way.
David Devore:It's like when you grow up in a small town, you are ignorant to that from lack of experience and knowledge.
David Devore:If I hadn't been gay, I would have been homophobic like my parents, because that's the environment that I came from.
David Devore:So the give and take in the relationship between the parent and the child is that the child has compassion for the parent and the parent has compassion for the child in terms of what's happening.
Heather Hester:Right, Right.
Heather Hester:And it's very much that, like, recognizing the humanity in each other.
David Devore:Right.
Heather Hester:Just being human.
Heather Hester:And I think so many times, you know, coming from the parent point of view, like, parents are expected to be perfect, like there's this expectation that parents are not going to mess up.
Heather Hester:We're not going to make everything that we ever suggest or say is going to be the, you know, whatever, the very best thing.
Heather Hester:Well, it's not right.
Heather Hester:And being able to just recognize that about yourself, like, give yourself some grace and be that, you know, it's super vulnerable.
Heather Hester:But putting yourself in that vulnerable position with your kids and being like, look, I don't know everything I want to learn, but I am going to mess up.
Heather Hester:So I need for you to be patient with me as I learn, as I met.
Heather Hester:And when I do mess up, please tell me.
David Devore:Yeah.
Heather Hester:If I say something that's wrong, tell me, because that's the only way that I'm going to learn.
David Devore:Exactly.
David Devore:Exactly.
David Devore:And being in that dialogue and keeping it open and continuing the conversation.
David Devore:I was actually just speaking with a gentleman today who came out to his parents, and then they never spoke about it again.
David Devore:It was a taboo topic.
David Devore:So that really limited his relationship with them in the future because he just goes on holidays, they have superficial conversation.
David Devore:He doesn't really.
David Devore:They haven't grown and they don't know each other the way that they could in the relationship if there was that openness, which is really tragic.
David Devore:Yeah.
Heather Hester:Really, really tragic.
David Devore:Yeah.
Heather Hester:And I always think, and I think, you know, you kind of go through the stages of grief when dealing with something like that.
Heather Hester:Like, I'm sure this.
Heather Hester:This young person is or has or, you know, will be where you kind of hope.
Heather Hester:Right.
Heather Hester:There's that hope.
Heather Hester:And I'm going to keep trying.
Heather Hester:And then you realize, and you're like.
Heather Hester:And you're angry then because you're thinking, these are my parents.
David Devore:Yeah.
Heather Hester:Their child.
David Devore:Right.
Heather Hester:And then you get to the place where you're, like, sad for them because they're missing out on so much.
David Devore:Yeah, they're missing out on so much.
Heather Hester:I mean, the joy alone that they're missing out on.
Heather Hester:I always think, oh, my gosh, that's just so tragic.
Heather Hester:It is.
David Devore:It is really tragic.
David Devore:And that's why by becoming more educated and finding support groups like what you're doing here, finding a place to be in conversation and to really begin to address the inner fears that parents have for their children being queer, which is very natural, I'm sure, that you might have experienced this, that the first thought you might have had is like, is he going to get bullied?
David Devore:Is he going to be rejected?
David Devore:How is it going to affect his life?
David Devore:Will he be limited in some way because of it?
David Devore:And what kind of Pain will.
David Devore:Would.
David Devore:Is he going through or will he go through in his life?
David Devore:And when parents have a lot of fear that they haven't processed that way, then in terms of who they are energetically when their child comes out to them, when you bring your own fear into the equation of your vulnerable child coming out, then you're sort of taking away that experience from them and you're shadowing it with fear and with doubt.
David Devore:So the most important thing, I really think is in terms of holding the space when a parent has done their work and is feeling comfortable with their own fears about it, with their own homophobia, with their own judgments about it, and get that and work on that part of it.
David Devore:The more that a parent can just show up and not have to really say anything, but maybe just ask questions about their experience and what it's been like and just hold the space for them with love, that that's exactly what a child needs.
David Devore:Because they're afraid that there's going to be.
David Devore:They're going to be interrogated, that they're going to be.
David Devore:All of the fear is going to come out in these questions that's going to pull the child further back and away in his coming out moment.
David Devore:Because the coming out moment is for the kid.
David Devore:It's not for the parents.
David Devore:It's one of the most important things the child will do in their relationship with you.
David Devore:And it can be the catalyst for a beautiful, deep and fulfilling relationship by.
David Devore:In that moment.
Heather Hester:Yes.
Heather Hester:Oh, my goodness, yes.
Heather Hester:And I will say my only caveat for that is that if you do mess it up, which many of us have, I mean, we messed it up in the sense that we weren't prepared, we didn't know.
Heather Hester:And so we asked the dumb questions like, are you sure?
David Devore:Right.
Heather Hester:Like, we still cannot even believe we asked that question.
Heather Hester:And we were not educated, we did not understand.
Heather Hester:So we asked a lot of questions that now I know and like, to your point exactly.
Heather Hester:Are questions that need to be asked.
David Devore:To.
Heather Hester:Therapist or when you're in a P.
Heather Hester:FLAG meeting or to someone like me or to you.
Heather Hester:And that's where you learn and that's where you process all of this so that you can then come into this space like you were just saying, and just be curious.
David Devore:Right.
Heather Hester:Like I want to hear what you have to say and then kind of take all of that.
Heather Hester:Right?
David Devore:Yeah.
Heather Hester:And creating that space once we learned how to do that.
Heather Hester:Right.
Heather Hester:Was so fascinating.
Heather Hester:And not just for, you know, our son who was coming out at the time, but then for his siblings as well, and the whole family experience.
Heather Hester:Right.
Heather Hester:Like it shifts the entire energy of the family.
David Devore:Yeah.
Heather Hester:And I think a piece of that too for parents is you don't have to be perfect.
David Devore:Exactly.
Heather Hester:Don't be perfect.
Heather Hester:Because that's just no fun.
David Devore:Right.
Heather Hester:And.
Heather Hester:Right.
Heather Hester:And it limits you in the connection that you can have with your child and your children, the connection you can have with your partner that you can have with other humans in your life.
Heather Hester:It just takes away so much joy.
David Devore:Yeah.
David Devore:And to maintain some sense of humor about yourself and your relationship and it doesn't have to be so incredibly serious and heavy.
David Devore:There can be some levity with it as well, which I think is really helpful.
Heather Hester:Well, it is just cutting yourself some slack.
David Devore:Yeah.
Heather Hester:And realizing that you are going to mess up like you just are.
David Devore:Exactly.
David Devore:But then it's a conversation.
David Devore:It's a conversation that will go on and on.
David Devore:And as a 55 year old man, in retrospect, and just as I said, watching the way that my relationship developed with both of my parents, I, you know, it blew my mind.
David Devore:It blew my mind that my partner was then in the weddings of my sisters and in the family picture.
David Devore:And you know, just as we grew, you know, it just became just absolutely normal that I'm gay and that I, you know, have a partner.
David Devore:And I didn't expect that.
David Devore:You know, I was really, I was blown away by that.
David Devore:I didn't know that that was even going to be a possibility in terms of their deeper acceptance and love for me.
Heather Hester:I mean that is such a really like such an incredible testament especially for our generation.
Heather Hester:Right.
Heather Hester:Like for our parents generation.
Heather Hester:And to be able to.
Heather Hester:And coming from a Catholic background which, you know, has all of its own stuff.
Heather Hester:Just from a Protestant like, you know, really conservative Protestant background.
Heather Hester:Right.
Heather Hester:Like there's, there's law stuff that comes with that.
Heather Hester:So being able to hear you and see you and say, okay, like we're gonna totally figure this out.
Heather Hester:And that's over here.
Heather Hester:Right?
David Devore:Yeah.
Heather Hester:And we were talking about this a little bit before.
Heather Hester:You don't have to be part of that.
Heather Hester:I can totally understand why that just doesn't work for you anymore.
David Devore:Right.
David Devore:Right.
David Devore:Yes, exactly.
David Devore:Yeah.
Heather Hester:Bravo.
Heather Hester:Bravo to your parents.
David Devore:Yeah.
David Devore:I was lucky.
David Devore:My dad was a little tougher.
David Devore:He was really.
David Devore:His biggest fear was that I would be alone.
David Devore:And he didn't.
David Devore:He just saw it as being.
David Devore:And he just said, you need to have a woman.
David Devore:You need to have a woman.
David Devore:He used to always give me this speech that I called man needs a woman speech at Dinner, like after dinner, he'd be like, if I didn't have your mom, I'd have another woman.
David Devore:And you need to have a woman.
David Devore:And when I came out to him, I was talking to my mom because I already come out to her.
David Devore:And he had been talking to my sisters, asking if they thought that I was gay.
David Devore:And he kept doing the man needs a woman speech, until one day he said, so David, why is it that you aren't dating women?
David Devore:And I said, it's because I'm gay.
David Devore:And he cried.
David Devore:He cried harder than I've ever seen him cry.
David Devore:Like, he sobbed because he was.
David Devore:But I realized it was because he was afraid for me.
David Devore:And I realized it was because he loved me.
David Devore:It wasn't that he was rejecting me.
David Devore:It was that he was afraid of what my what.
David Devore:How my life would be harmed by it, by the opportunities that I might not have, by the rejection that I would experience, by the pain of what it would be.
David Devore:And that is something else that my mom said to me when I came out, because I came out in like my senior year of college and she just grabbed my hand and she said, I'm so sorry that you had to go through all of that alone.
David Devore:And that was so powerful, you know, And I didn't even think about that.
David Devore:But it's like I was completely alone in it for a long time and just in my own mind about it.
David Devore:And it's terrifying to live with that duality.
David Devore:It's terrifying to think like there's something about me that inherently people will reject that, you know, it's an awful feeling to live in that duality.
David Devore:And that's why coming out.
David Devore:So important.
Heather Hester:Yes, so important.
Heather Hester:And why it's really important also to understand, understand what is going on and to see why that potentially can lead to maladaptive coping mechanisms.
David Devore:Right.
Heather Hester:Like any kind of substance use or abuse, any kind of self harm, you know, dangerous online behaviors.
Heather Hester:Right.
Heather Hester:Like there's a lot of different pieces to that that are really important to understand why that's going on and because I think, you know, quite common right now is to see kids, you know, who do are, who are coming out in high school, but they've known since middle school, right?
Heather Hester:So they've known since they were like 12 or 13, but they haven't said anything and they didn't understand exactly what they knew.
Heather Hester:So they were going through this whole.
Heather Hester:When it.
Heather Hester:Those ages are such horrible ages to begin with, right?
Heather Hester:Like just the cult developmental stages.
Heather Hester:And then you add like that extra layer of shame yes.
Heather Hester:Right.
Heather Hester:I mean, down to the whole shame piece.
Heather Hester:And they're sitting in that by themselves for these years.
Heather Hester:And you think.
Heather Hester:I mean, you know, kind of like, I feel the same way as your mom.
Heather Hester:I was like, I'm so sorry you were alone those years, and just, you know, we had no idea.
David Devore:Right.
Heather Hester:Well, I think that.
David Devore:Yeah, I think that she sort of.
David Devore:She kind of innately knew that, but she didn't know exactly how to frame it or what it was in her experience.
David Devore:Yeah, she really.
David Devore:She surprised me so much with her graciousness around all of it.
David Devore:We did have conversations about whether she did tell me that she was saddened by the wife and children that I would never have, like, letting that go.
David Devore:And we processed that, which is definitely a thought that I think a lot of parents have.
David Devore:And she remained incredibly open and curious.
David Devore:And we just had this really.
David Devore:We've developed this banter where there's just an open.
David Devore:It's just part of the way that we converse.
David Devore:It deepened our relationship so much.
David Devore:Yes.
David Devore:Yeah.
Heather Hester:Right.
Heather Hester:It's the coolest thing ever.
David Devore:Yeah.
Heather Hester:I mean, I just.
David Devore:It's such an opportunity for bonding and for.
David Devore:To get closer.
Heather Hester:I mean, and the things that it is.
Heather Hester:I mean, and I'm sure for you, like, you felt like you could just talk to her.
Heather Hester:Right.
Heather Hester:And then there wasn't going to be a judgment.
Heather Hester:There wasn't going to be any kind of like, well, you should.
Heather Hester:You know, none of the should was going on.
Heather Hester:And.
Heather Hester:And I.
Heather Hester:I feel that way with Connor whenever, you know, he's telling me things, and I think I'm so lucky.
Heather Hester:Like.
David Devore:Right.
David Devore:Yeah.
Heather Hester:Well, that's.
Heather Hester:That's a lot of information.
David Devore:Yeah.
David Devore:I think that one of the.
Heather Hester:Would take any day, Right?
David Devore:Yeah.
Heather Hester:Yeah.
David Devore:And I think that one of the things.
David Devore:One of the things to recognize is that I think that when.
David Devore:When a parent believes, or even a child believes that it's.
David Devore:It's that your sexuality is a choice that really confuses things a lot.
David Devore:Instead of recognizing that I am innately gay in the same way that you're innately straight.
David Devore:And I even brought that to my mom's attention because I said, mom, imagine if you lived in a world where everybody was saying, becky, you need to settle down with a nice woman and have a family, and you need to.
David Devore:That's what you need to be doing.
David Devore:What would that feel like to you?
David Devore:And she thought about it for a few minutes and she just.
David Devore:She said, I can't even imagine that.
David Devore:And I said, it's exactly how it feels.
David Devore:For me, I'm innately gay.
David Devore:I feel that I've always been gay.
David Devore:It's just a part of who I am.
David Devore:And as a straight person, we don't have a moment where.
David Devore:Where we're like, I identify as straight, I'm coming out, I'm straight.
David Devore:It's just assumed that someone is straight.
David Devore:Right.
David Devore:So when we can get rid.
David Devore:As a parent, when you can begin to just accept the fact that your child is innately who they are, then we're not even thinking about it being something that can be changed, that it can be something that could be cured or fixed or, you know, you can just allow it to be.
David Devore:Just accept exactly what it is in that moment.
David Devore:And even if it is some sort of a phase or maybe that person is bisexual or they're on a journey of discovery and sexuality is incredibly fluid.
David Devore:I always say people are what they say they are.
David Devore:Just stay with them.
David Devore:They can identify any way they want.
David Devore:They can change their mind, they can explore, they can experiment.
David Devore:What they say they are is what they are.
David Devore:And we just have to honor and acknowledge that as just being their truth.
Heather Hester:Right, right, exactly.
Heather Hester:And not freak out.
David Devore:Right.
Heather Hester:I mean, there's.
Heather Hester:There's that potential when there is fluidity involved to, like, freak out and be like, but I need.
Heather Hester:I need to know something.
Heather Hester:Right?
Heather Hester:Well.
Heather Hester:And we don't.
Heather Hester:And we get to be uncomfortable.
Heather Hester:If that makes you uncomfortable, then that's.
Heather Hester:You just get to be uncomfortable.
David Devore:Exactly.
David Devore:Yeah.
Heather Hester:That is her journey.
Heather Hester:Right.
Heather Hester:That's there.
Heather Hester:And there's nothing wrong with it.
Heather Hester:And I think that's what's really hard to wrap your head around.
Heather Hester:We don't need boxes.
Heather Hester:Right.
Heather Hester:They don't have to check a box.
David Devore:And that's okay, Right, Right, right.
Heather Hester:And being sitting in that uncomfortable space where you're just like, I just don't know.
Heather Hester:That's actually really good.
Heather Hester:Like, it's.
Heather Hester:Because to me, that's always like, this is a sign of incredible growth.
Heather Hester:So just like, be like, I'm.
Heather Hester:I am growing right now.
David Devore:Yeah, yeah.
Heather Hester:Comfortable.
Heather Hester:But I'm growing.
David Devore:And that it's okay for it to be uncomfortable and it's okay for it to be.
David Devore:To just.
David Devore:It doesn't mean that you're doing anything wrong.
David Devore:It doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with that.
David Devore:It's just.
David Devore:You're experiencing it as well.
David Devore:And the more that a person can be transparent as a parent with their child in that way, the more it encourages the child to be more honest about their experience as well.
Heather Hester:Exactly, exactly.
Heather Hester:And I think just kind of.
Heather Hester:This just popped into my head, but kind of at the end of the day, because I think parents are always like, well, then what can I do?
Heather Hester:Right?
Heather Hester:If we're.
Heather Hester:If we're having all of this kind of open flowiness, right?
Heather Hester:The one thing, right, we can't control our kids.
Heather Hester:So that's.
Heather Hester:Let's just like put that out there.
Heather Hester:We've never been able to control them.
Heather Hester:That is just a fallacy, something that's made up.
Heather Hester:What we can do is let them know what their choices are.
Heather Hester:And this not being a choice, but I mean.
Heather Hester:And as they live their life, right, we can say, we are.
Heather Hester:We here's safety.
Heather Hester:We worry about your safety.
Heather Hester:We want you to be safe.
Heather Hester:We want you to be happy.
Heather Hester:And instead of saying, well, don't do this, don't do this, don't do this, don't do this.
Heather Hester:Here are all the choices, right?
Heather Hester:Here are all the choices you have in all of these situations.
Heather Hester:Let's talk about it.
Heather Hester:And then that's empowering for them, and that's taking the focus off, because I think another thing, and I'm not.
Heather Hester:I don't know if I'd love to hear what you think about this, but that when it's not a child, but anyone comes out, right?
Heather Hester:That is.
Heather Hester:The full focus is, I am gay or I am bisexual or whatever you're coming out as.
Heather Hester:And that's like, that's who I am.
Heather Hester:That's the 100% identity.
Heather Hester:When it's really not.
Heather Hester:It's like, that's a piece of who you are.
David Devore:Yeah, right.
David Devore:Yeah.
Heather Hester:Just like being straight is a piece of who I am.
David Devore:Yes.
Heather Hester:And so getting to that place of being able to have all these other conversations around it and just be, you know, we're going to talk about these, all these other things, right?
Heather Hester:Because yes, this does.
Heather Hester:These shifts choices that you have out in the world, Right.
Heather Hester:And this does.
Heather Hester:But it's a shift.
Heather Hester:It's not exactly.
David Devore:And it really recognizes that we as human beings are more similar than we are different.
David Devore:And sometimes with sexuality and sexual identification, that difference makes us feel like we're in a completely different tribe.
David Devore:And that's why we move to gay neighborhoods and surround ourselves with only gay people sometimes in the beginning is just to kind of find our tribe and find our place.
David Devore:What I've realized in my journey, you know, and I did that right away because when I, When I, you know, in the late 80s, when I moved to Chicago, I did.
David Devore:There was no mentorship, there was no social Media.
David Devore:I didn't even know what gay life was.
David Devore:So I really moved to the city to discover myself and surround myself by my.
David Devore:With my peers and discover what that was all about.
David Devore:But as I grew.
David Devore:As I grew up and I became to love and accept myself more, I came to see more and more in my relationships with straight men, straight women, gay men, people of all different, you know, orientations that it doesn't matter as much.
David Devore:What matters is what we have in common.
David Devore:We have way more in common than just who we sleep with and who we are sexually, but because there's such a spotlight that's put on the sexual part of it, and that's where morality also comes into it, where it's sort of like the big thing that comes in my lives all the time is like, you're sinning, you need to repent.
David Devore:And there's an argument that's always being made about whether the morality of your sexuality, which I think is true in the heterosexual world too.
David Devore:My sisters both said they felt very guilty being Catholic and their sexual exploration as younger people.
David Devore:It's sort of a double whammy then, when you're a queer person.
David Devore:But to the degree that the religion is a part of the family unit can be.
David Devore:The degree that there's a difficulty in conflict with parents in terms of what they believe, that God is condemning their child to hell and that it's their responsibility to also condemn because of the religion, that those things have to be put in check as well.
Heather Hester:Right.
Heather Hester:Well, that's just.
Heather Hester:That's another layer.
David Devore:It's a big layer.
David Devore:It is.
David Devore:It's a huge one.
David Devore:And that.
David Devore:That's actually one of the most difficult.
David Devore:I would say that religion is one of the biggest reasons why parents ostracize children who come out and send them on the street.
David Devore:Because of the religion.
David Devore:Religion and.
Heather Hester:For sure.
David Devore:Yeah.
Heather Hester:Which.
Heather Hester:I mean, holy cow.
Heather Hester:I just.
Heather Hester:I don't have words.
Heather Hester:I mean, the words.
Heather Hester:It is still very difficult for me, having grown up in that environment, to think that anyone could do that.
David Devore:Yeah.
David Devore:To a child.
Heather Hester:To their child, who has, like, you know, told them, like, the most personal thing about themselves.
Heather Hester:Right.
Heather Hester:And shared something that was so difficult to share.
Heather Hester:And then to be, you know, thrown out or ostracized or, you know, you name the terrible stories.
Heather Hester:You've heard many of them.
David Devore:Yes.
David Devore:I just recently was working with a client who was a Mormon.
David Devore:He grew up Mormon.
David Devore:And when he came out to his parents, they.
David Devore:Their community did a shunning ceremony where they put him in the center of A circle.
David Devore:And they all were standing around him, and they at the same time turned their backs on him, and they opened the circle and he left, and he.
David Devore:He never saw any of them again.
David Devore:His entire family and the entire community.
David Devore:And he was 17 years old, and he had to find his own way.
David Devore:And as a result of the shame of that and losing your whole community at that age, he became really involved in alcohol and drug usage, and he tried to kill himself a couple of times.
David Devore:He was in such a deep sense of shame and hopelessness as a result of the isolation that he felt around his sexuality and being rejected, that it almost cost him his life.
Heather Hester:It's a miracle it did.
David Devore:I know.
David Devore:It's like we're.
David Devore:You know, he didn't have any resources or anything.
David Devore:He was just on the street.
David Devore:It's just.
David Devore:I can't even imagine that.
Heather Hester:I cannot even.
Heather Hester:I just.
Heather Hester:That's why I cry all the time.
Heather Hester:I hear all these stories.
David Devore:Yeah.
David Devore:It's awful.
Heather Hester:Can you imagine?
Heather Hester:I just can't.
Heather Hester:Like, what makes one do that?
David Devore:Right.
David Devore:Yeah, I know.
David Devore:It has to do with this deeper fear within the world of individual differences, which is also the same root as racism and ethnocentrism, where we're just sort of.
David Devore:We are holding onto the majority rules, and this is how things are.
David Devore:And anything that deviates from that is feared, and it's considered to be a threat to our life in some way, because it's different.
David Devore:And that's the tragedy.
David Devore:And yet, for people, like I said before, who don't have experience with it, I can understand where the homophobia comes from or who grow up in religions where they believe that.
David Devore:It's just that as a parent, it's time to.
David Devore:To step beyond that religion and those paradigms, and it is an opportunity for a parent to grow and to really deconstruct their own religion and thought about things, because I don't think Jesus would be into that at all.
David Devore:That rejection.
David Devore:Right.
David Devore:He's like this loving hippie who's, like, all about love and peace and, you know, with.
David Devore:And then all of the judgment and the pain and the guilt and the shame that's caused in.
David Devore:In his name through religion.
David Devore:It's like.
David Devore:He'd be pissed.
Heather Hester:Yeah.
David Devore:You would literally.
Heather Hester:He would just be.
Heather Hester:I mean, I'm sad.
Heather Hester:Heartbroken.
David Devore:Yeah.
Heather Hester:I do not even believe y'all got that out of what that said.
Heather Hester:Right.
Heather Hester:Like reading that and getting this.
David Devore:Exactly, exactly, exactly.
Heather Hester:It's extraordinary.
David Devore:And he would come and he would come back and like, to rebrand Himself.
David Devore:And then he.
David Devore:He would be rejected by the Christian world again, because he would be an outsider hippie again.
Heather Hester:Right.
Heather Hester:Again, 100%.
Heather Hester:He would be like flying the rainbow flag right along.
David Devore:Yep, exactly.
David Devore:He would.
Heather Hester:Oh, my goodness.
Heather Hester:It is so true.
Heather Hester:Yeah, well, you know, it is one of those moments.
Heather Hester:You know, we.
Heather Hester:We all have, like a moment in our life.
Heather Hester:Right.
Heather Hester:That is a life changing moment.
Heather Hester:It has the potential to be a life changing moment.
David Devore:Yeah.
Heather Hester:And for the good, they're the bad ones too.
Heather Hester:But for the good.
Heather Hester:And this is one of them.
David Devore:Yep.
Heather Hester:Your child comes out to you.
Heather Hester:You have a choice in that moment.
David Devore:Yeah.
Heather Hester:What is the choice going to be?
David Devore:Yeah, exactly.
David Devore:And I think that one thing that you hit home a couple of times that I think is so important is that as a parent, you're a human being and you do have your own feelings and you might not do it exactly right.
David Devore:But it's really about just having the intention of love and holding the space for your child and being in that conversation and letting them know that you're there.
David Devore:You know what I mean?
David Devore:I think that the one thing that a parent could ask a child is, in what way can I support you?
David Devore:What is it that you need from me?
David Devore:I'm 100% here, and I want you to tell me what it is that you could use from me.
David Devore:And then that gives the child the power to.
David Devore:To set the boundaries or to talk about what they want to talk about or ask the questions.
David Devore:And I think that it can be really helpful.
Heather Hester:Absolutely, absolutely.
Heather Hester:And it's also, you know, totally okay to just say, you know, I really love you and I need a minute.
David Devore:Yeah.
David Devore:Yeah, I need it.
David Devore:Yeah.
Heather Hester:Or I just, you know, let me.
Heather Hester:I need to, like, kind of, you know, I love you and.
David Devore:And I need to process.
David Devore:And it's okay to process.
David Devore:It's okay to say, I need.
David Devore:I need 24 hours, you know, especially, you know, if it's.
David Devore:If it's new and it's unexpected, you know.
Heather Hester:Yes.
Heather Hester:I mean, absolutely.
Heather Hester:So just kind of.
Heather Hester:I think the more we put that out there, like, we just keep putting it out there.
Heather Hester:That is okay.
David Devore:Exactly.
David Devore:But the parents that are listening to this show right now, to this podcast, are obviously taking a step in wanting to bridge that.
David Devore:So there's already that.
David Devore:That desire to make this.
David Devore:To make this smooth.
David Devore:To make this smooth, you know, for their child and for themselves, but it will never be perfect.
David Devore:And it's just part of the ebb and flow of the relationship, but it can just continue.
David Devore:It's like keeping that conversation alive and open is what it's all about.
David Devore:And it will evolve.
Heather Hester:Right?
Heather Hester:Right.
Heather Hester:Exactly.
Heather Hester:Exactly.
Heather Hester:So I would love if you could.
Heather Hester:I have my final question for you that I love to ask, which is.
Heather Hester:And you have your choice, or you can do both.
Heather Hester:Words of wisdom for a young person coming out or words of wisdom for a parent of a child coming out.
David Devore:I actually think for both that some sense of preparation, if it's possible, is absolutely important for a child.
David Devore:I would say find a support group, find other allies, other friends who are queer, look for support online and become more comfortable with who you are and begin to accept yourself in that journey.
David Devore:Because the more that you can embody your truth and be who you are, and the moment that you come out to your parents, the easier it will be for them when they see that you're happy and that you're feeling comfortable with who you are, the easier it will be for them and the easier it will be for you in terms of.
David Devore:But that you don't have to do it right away.
David Devore:You don't have to feel rushed into it to take your time.
David Devore:And especially if you're in a place where you feel like you could be rejected or kicked out of the house, you have to think about your safety first.
David Devore:That might meet.
David Devore:That you come out a little bit later, like when you're in college.
David Devore:But taking the time to prepare and recognizing that coming out is for you, it's not for your parents, it's for you to be your authentic self so there isn't a duality of gay me and straight me where you don't have to play this game of being two different people.
David Devore:And to the parents, I would say in the same way that if you have an opportunity to be prepared to learn as much as you can about queer life and queer people and meet some queer friends maybe and ask questions and become involved in that community and to make sure that you're not leading with your fear as your child comes out, that you're not leading with your own homophobia and that you have those things in check if you have time to process that.
David Devore:Because the more of a clean slate that you can bring for your child in terms of this open how can I support you?
David Devore:And asking questions that will not create a defensiveness in your child, but just to gain more information and to learn more about their experience and the difficulties of their experience, the better.
David Devore:But that being said, you know, we arrive at it where we arrive at it, and it doesn't work out that perfectly all the Time.
David Devore:Right.
David Devore:And there will always be mistakes.
David Devore:Things happen.
David Devore:We're human beings.
David Devore:But as long as we can keep the conversation open and it doesn't get shut down, that's the most important part.
David Devore:Because as a 55 year old man, the relationship that I developed with my parents, like I said, was beyond, I think, what it would have been if I'd been straight.
David Devore:Because it really created this sense of vulnerability in sharing with both my mom and dad and was a real testament to their love for me.
David Devore:Even being Catholic, even being homophobic or having very limited experience, that their capacity to grow and evolve because of their love for me was absolutely profound.
Heather Hester:I think that's a beautiful place to end.
David Devore:Yeah.
David Devore:Yeah.
Heather Hester:Thank you so much for being here.
David Devore:Absolutely.
David Devore:It was wonderful to talk to you.
David Devore:I was really looking forward to it.
David Devore:I think this work is incredibly important because like I said in the beginning, parents can't underestimate how incredibly powerful that moment is when the child comes out and when you can be in an open space of love and support.
David Devore:You're really helping your child on their journey by having that sense of love and support.
David Devore:It's everything.
David Devore:It's so important.
Heather Hester:It really is.
Heather Hester:I mean, it really is.
Heather Hester:So thank you and thank you for reiterating that.
Heather Hester:Just, I'm so grateful for you and grateful for your work as well.
David Devore:Thank you.
Heather Hester:And I will list all of your information in my show notes so people can find you online, so people can find you on TikTok.
David Devore:TikTok's my main.
David Devore:My main place right now.
Heather Hester:Go to TikTok.
David Devore:Yeah.
David Devore:I'm coach Devorah on TikTok.
David Devore:So you can just find me there and come to my lives and we'll talk.
David Devore:I'd love to hear about any of the things that are happening out there for you parents.
David Devore:You're more than welcome in my lives.
Heather Hester:And you do lives daily.
David Devore:Correct.
Heather Hester:Perfect.
David Devore:Yeah.
Heather Hester:Wonderful.
David Devore:Yeah.
Heather Hester:All right.
Heather Hester:Thank you.
David Devore:Thank you, Heather.
David Devore:It's good to meet you.
Heather Hester:You as well.
Heather Hester:Thanks so much for joining me today.
Heather Hester:If you enjoyed today's episode, I would be so, so grateful.
Heather Hester:For a rating or a review, click on the link in the show notes or go to my website, chrysalismama.com to stay up to date on my latest resources as well as to learn how you can work with me.
Heather Hester:Please share this podcast with anyone who needs to know that they are not alone.
Heather Hester:And remember to just breathe, breathe.
Heather Hester:Until next time.
