Hope and Action: Conversations on Preventing Teen Suicide

Host: 00:01:13

As you have likely seen either on social media or via an email or two, September is Suicide Prevention Awareness Month.

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Over the past few years I've had the opportunity to interview a number of different people on the topic who have shared stories, tips and very actionable strategies.

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I've taken powerful segments of each conversation and put them into one episode for you today.

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As I was re listening to each episode, there were a few recurring themes that I wanted to share before we even got started.

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The first is suicide is a preventable tragedy.

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The second is everyone wants to create awareness but we're already aware teen suicide is a human connection problem.

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The third is it is so important to show our kids that we are human.

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The fourth is that talking about suicide with our kids is proven to reduce risk, not increase it.

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And the fifth is listening.

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Really hearing what our kids are saying and telling us is so very important we can stop suicide with our ears.

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Here are some really important crisis numbers for you to have on hand.

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-: 7396

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I will link the full episodes in the show notes.

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I hope this is really, really helpful.

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This is very important information and we will explore it much more deeply in the next episode.

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I'm honored to have Jay Reed with me today on Just Breathe.

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Jay is an accomplished and multi talented businessman and devoted husband and father of four.

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Two years ago in March, his life was turned upside down when he lost his youngest son to suicide.

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Shocked and devastated, Jay wondered how they had missed the signs.

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In working through his intense grief, Jay decided to take action.

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His TEDx talk and documentary are raw and truly extraordinary.

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Both open viewers eyes to the devastation that is the teen suicide epidemic and encourage all parents, actually anyone who knows a kid to become better educated and work toward ending this very preventable tragedy.

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Jay, I want you to know how grateful I am that you are here today and just really thankful that you're willing to share your story with me and with my audience.

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It is heart wrenching, it is powerful and it's really important.

Jay Reed: 00:04:33

I'm a guy who has what I always thought is a wonderful family life.

Jay Reed: 00:04:38

Spent a lot of time with my kids.

Jay Reed: 00:04:41

I there was never any signs anybody was struggling that I ever saw.

Jay Reed: 00:04:46

My wife and I had a to celebrate her birthday middle of March last two years ago and on March 21st it was nighttime.

Jay Reed: 00:04:55

It was: 11:03

Jay Reed: 00:05:10

There was a little more to it.

Jay Reed: 00:05:13

He sent individual texts that to the whole family and that night he killed himself.

Jay Reed: 00:05:20

It was not a spontaneous thing.

Jay Reed: 00:05:25

He had planned it, been thinking about it well over a year, made sure that Kim and I were out of town.

Jay Reed: 00:05:36

He knew where to go, where he wouldn't be found in time.

Jay Reed: 00:05:39

I'll save you all the, the pain of trying to get home and get to the hospital and.

Jay Reed: 00:05:48

But essentially that was on the 21st of March.

Jay Reed: 00:05:51

On the 26th of March, we took him off life support.

Jay Reed: 00:05:54

I talked about this all the time.

Jay Reed: 00:05:57

I speak different places and you think it would get easier to say.

Host: 00:06:07

No.

Jay Reed: 00:06:08

But doesn't it's always this first couple of minutes.

Jay Reed: 00:06:13

Sorry.

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Don't apologize.

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Please admire your strength in being able to share this because there are not words.

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Heartbreaking, heart wrenching, gut wrenching.

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Just thinking about what, you know, what you went through, what your wife went through, what your children, other children went through and what your baby boy went through.

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And I thought about this a lot since I first watched your TEDx talk and thinking, oh my goodness, we think 14 is so young and they're not aware of all of the things they really are aware of.

Jay Reed: 00:06:58

I didn't understand and my mission has become to help parents understand what I missed.

Jay Reed: 00:07:07

So I'm a guy who takes action.

Jay Reed: 00:07:09

So I did what every other person would want to do is you start a website, right?

Host: 00:07:14

Absolutely.

Jay Reed: 00:07:15

So that's what I want Ryan to do.

Jay Reed: 00:07:17

I said I want, I would really like to.

Jay Reed: 00:07:21

Yeah.

Jay Reed: 00:07:21

Chose.

Jay Reed: 00:07:22

Chose life.

Host: 00:07:24

You talk about having a new approach to mental health and specifically suicide prevention and young people and teenagers.

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Can you talk some, a little bit about that?

Jay Reed: 00:07:37

As I looked at this and I'm not a doctor, I'm not a professional in this space.

Jay Reed: 00:07:43

I'm just a guy lost a kid.

Jay Reed: 00:07:46

But I spent a lot of time looking at this and trying to understand how we got here.

Jay Reed: 00:07:52

So the documentary is really all about me trying to share with parents what happened and what I missed.

Jay Reed: 00:08:00

And we go and we interview kids that have attempted.

Jay Reed: 00:08:02

We talk to parents and we talk to professionals and there's a picture that emerges of a world we live in now that's not the world we used to live in.

Jay Reed: 00:08:11

And it really, it was meant to give you something that you could watch and learn and hopefully go home and make some changes in the relationships you have with your kids and your friends and your loved ones.

Jay Reed: 00:08:24

Everybody wants to raise Awareness for teen suicide.

Jay Reed: 00:08:26

But everybody's aware, everybody is aware that it exists.

Jay Reed: 00:08:32

Your kids are aware of it, but it keeps going up every year.

Jay Reed: 00:08:36

It's the number two killer of our kids.

Jay Reed: 00:08:39

In: 2017

Jay Reed: 00:08:41

2018, it was 5,700 kids.

Jay Reed: 00:08:44

2019.

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Stats are not out yet, but early words say they'll be higher.

Jay Reed: 00:08:49

It's getting worse and worse.

Jay Reed: 00:08:51

And when I grew up, I'm 53 years of age.

Jay Reed: 00:08:54

40 years ago, when I was 13 years of age, I didn't.

Jay Reed: 00:08:59

This didn't exist to the same level as it does today.

Jay Reed: 00:09:02

So how did we get here?

Jay Reed: 00:09:04

We created it.

Jay Reed: 00:09:06

It's a man made problem.

Jay Reed: 00:09:09

We are not as connected with our kids as we used to be.

Jay Reed: 00:09:15

We're on our cell phones there on their cell phones, we're watching tv.

Jay Reed: 00:09:18

And then you mess around with your brother and sister and eventually you get in trouble and your mom would kick you outside whether snow or not.

Jay Reed: 00:09:24

And you figure out something to do and you play and you come back in till dinnertime, at dinner time.

Jay Reed: 00:09:30

And then you sit at the dinner table as a family and you hear about each other's days and then you would go do something together.

Jay Reed: 00:09:37

Maybe you watch a TV show together, you watch Disney, you do something completely different.

Jay Reed: 00:09:44

Now these days that's not the way the world works.

Jay Reed: 00:09:47

We are disconnected as a family.

Jay Reed: 00:09:49

We are not connected with our kids, we're not connected with each other.

Jay Reed: 00:09:53

And when you take a look at how we got here, that's how we got here.

Jay Reed: 00:09:58

Right now there's more to it.

Jay Reed: 00:10:00

I remember being 13, 14 years of age and I don't remember anything going on in the world.

Jay Reed: 00:10:08

There were wars, there were problems.

Jay Reed: 00:10:10

I'm sure there was.

Jay Reed: 00:10:10

I can look back in history and go, when I was that age, that's what was going on.

Jay Reed: 00:10:14

I didn't know the news was on at 6 o'clock till 6, 30, maybe 7.

Jay Reed: 00:10:20

My father watched it.

Jay Reed: 00:10:21

I sure as heck didn't.

Jay Reed: 00:10:23

I didn't read the newspaper at 13 years of age.

Jay Reed: 00:10:25

I had no idea what was going on in the world.

Jay Reed: 00:10:27

And I liked it that way.

Jay Reed: 00:10:29

Yep, you take a look at kids now.

Jay Reed: 00:10:32

th,: 2020

Jay Reed: 00:10:37

Your kids right now at 12, 13, 14 years of age.

Jay Reed: 00:10:42

If they have a cell phone with access to the Internet, here's what they're worried about.

Jay Reed: 00:10:45

That you never had to think about.

Jay Reed: 00:10:47

Are they going to die because the coronavirus is going to come over the States and kill them.

Host: 00:10:53

Yep, you're exactly right.

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My 12 year old asks me that on a daily basis.

Jay Reed: 00:11:00

Like the anxiety.

Host: 00:11:01

Yeah.

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Oh yeah.

Jay Reed: 00:11:03

And then if that's not gonna happen, we only have eight years left to live on this planet.

Jay Reed: 00:11:07

Because people say it's gonna die in eight years.

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Correct.

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My oldest was just saying that the other day.

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There's some countdown app that these kids can get on that tells you this.

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It's craziness.

Jay Reed: 00:11:21

So here I'm a 13 year old kid and besides my bullies, besides my homework, which is more than it used to be, besides the pressure to have straight A's which we didn't have that pressure when I grew up.

Jay Reed: 00:11:34

And then I've got to be.

Jay Reed: 00:11:36

I'm on the baseball team, but I'm on the travel baseball team because I think I've got a chance of being a baseball legend.

Jay Reed: 00:11:43

All the pressure of just being a kid, which is even more than it ever was.

Jay Reed: 00:11:47

Now I've got to worry if I'm going to die, if the world's going to collapse.

Jay Reed: 00:11:54

The anxiety the kids have today is so much more than it ever was when we grew up.

Jay Reed: 00:12:02

And that's the message I'm trying to get across to parents is that we created this problem.

Jay Reed: 00:12:09

Not intentionally, we didn't intentionally create it, but we created a world where everything is accessible and everybody knows everything and there's fake news and this and that out there and we don't do a good enough job as parents.

Jay Reed: 00:12:20

I didn't.

Jay Reed: 00:12:22

Of having the conversation with our kids about how they really feel and their anxiety levels are off the charts.

Host: 00:12:29

You're absolutely right.

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Until we wrap our heads around that it isn't.

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This world is not the world we grew up in.

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It is so different.

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And we understand the effect that all this social media, all of the you just named every single thing, the incredible amounts of homework, the pressure to be on a sports team and to be the best, to be the best at every single thing you do.

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They'll come to me occasionally.

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I'm bored.

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Good.

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That's good.

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Because it gives them that chance to like decompress.

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Put your phone away, go outside, talk with your friends to their faces and not on their phones.

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You have absolutely hit the nail on the head with connecting and connecting with our kids and not being afraid to connect.

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And I think that's another.

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What are your thoughts on that?

Jay Reed: 00:13:31

I think that first of all we.

Jay Reed: 00:13:34

I never recognized and I think most parents don't recognize all the things we're just talking about right now.

Jay Reed: 00:13:39

The differences.

Jay Reed: 00:13:40

They haven't, we haven't made the connection, all the differences.

Host: 00:13:43

Absolutely.

Jay Reed: 00:13:44

Now we're like, going, what do we do about it?

Jay Reed: 00:13:45

It's easy.

Jay Reed: 00:13:46

When I go check in on my kid and they say, oh, I'm fine.

Jay Reed: 00:13:50

You go, okay, you're fine.

Jay Reed: 00:13:51

Because guess what?

Jay Reed: 00:13:53

I'm not so thankful myself.

Host: 00:13:57

Exactly.

Jay Reed: 00:13:59

Right?

Jay Reed: 00:13:59

So the first thing you have to realize is when a kid says, I'm fine, they're not fine.

Jay Reed: 00:14:06

There's a wide range of words they can choose.

Jay Reed: 00:14:08

I'm great, I'm good.

Jay Reed: 00:14:09

I'm awesome.

Jay Reed: 00:14:11

I'm sad, I'm mad, I'm upset.

Jay Reed: 00:14:13

Fine is right in the middle.

Host: 00:14:14

Which means, no, you're not absolutely correct.

Jay Reed: 00:14:18

And it's inconvenient being a parent because you're like, oh, crap.

Host: 00:14:25

Yes.

Jay Reed: 00:14:26

I don't have time for this.

Jay Reed: 00:14:29

Right.

Jay Reed: 00:14:30

Because our lives are busy, too, I guess.

Host: 00:14:33

But it is the single most important thing we can do.

Jay Reed: 00:14:37

It is.

Jay Reed: 00:14:38

And I obviously didn't do a very good job of it, and a lot of parents don't.

Jay Reed: 00:14:42

And just because you're not a perfect parent, because none of us are, doesn't mean.

Jay Reed: 00:14:48

You mean my situation.

Jay Reed: 00:14:50

I just want everybody to pay attention to it because I didn't see it coming.

Jay Reed: 00:14:54

I didn't realize that Ryan's spending so much time in his room by himself was a sign of anything.

Jay Reed: 00:14:58

I thought it was how kids are these days.

Jay Reed: 00:15:01

He's my younger son, about 4.

Jay Reed: 00:15:02

He's just.

Jay Reed: 00:15:03

That kid isn't all that social.

Jay Reed: 00:15:05

He's on, but he's on his computer with his friend, so I guess he's doing something right.

Jay Reed: 00:15:09

I didn't recognize all the signs.

Jay Reed: 00:15:11

And I use grumpy.

Jay Reed: 00:15:13

I thought, he's just grumpy.

Host: 00:15:15

He's a teenager.

Jay Reed: 00:15:16

He said he's fine.

Jay Reed: 00:15:17

He must be fine.

Jay Reed: 00:15:19

He does laugh.

Jay Reed: 00:15:20

We had a fun night last night.

Jay Reed: 00:15:22

We had dinner.

Jay Reed: 00:15:22

We sat around the table, and we were.

Jay Reed: 00:15:24

That there's no.

Jay Reed: 00:15:25

There are zero electronics at our dinner table.

Jay Reed: 00:15:28

I wrote a freaking book called Dinner Conversations, which is all about the funny stories that happen around our dinner table, trying to get parents to understand they should not have their phones at the dinner table.

Jay Reed: 00:15:37

That's how ironic this whole thing is.

Host: 00:15:39

And you are the guy that.

Host: 00:15:42

It blows my mind just knowing the more I learn about you that this did happen in your family because you.

Host: 00:15:50

You are connected.

Host: 00:15:52

You were connected.

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You just didn't realize because these kids are very good at hiding what they don't want us to know and wanted to hide it.

Host: 00:16:03

Yes.

Jay Reed: 00:16:04

But he did that.

Jay Reed: 00:16:05

Because when you think about why he did it, here I am I'm that guy.

Jay Reed: 00:16:09

I'm that guy who owns companies, never has a problem.

Jay Reed: 00:16:13

My kids never saw me cry.

Jay Reed: 00:16:15

I'm a black belt.

Jay Reed: 00:16:16

I'm an ironman guy.

Jay Reed: 00:16:19

People would say, I'm successful.

Jay Reed: 00:16:20

I've written eight books.

Jay Reed: 00:16:21

Everything in my life goes great according to Ryan.

Jay Reed: 00:16:23

What I show people in my family is that I handle all my stuff and everything gets done.

Jay Reed: 00:16:31

Everything's great.

Jay Reed: 00:16:32

And like Ryan and my wife and my kids never knew the fact that I failed at a whole bunch of companies, that I've almost been bankrupt a couple of times.

Jay Reed: 00:16:40

I never told anybody that it happened around them.

Jay Reed: 00:16:43

They never saw it.

Jay Reed: 00:16:44

So I portrayed this vision to Ryan that life is wonderful and great and never has a problem and I can solve all my stuff.

Jay Reed: 00:16:50

So what is Ryan role model?

Jay Reed: 00:16:52

He looks at his life and goes, my wife, my life sucks.

Jay Reed: 00:16:56

There must be something wrong with me.

Host: 00:16:59

The humanness, being human.

Host: 00:17:01

I never showed it because we weren't brought up that way either.

Host: 00:17:06

We never knew that's what we were supposed to do.

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We thought as parents, what did you think?

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I have to be this perfect role model.

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I have to show my kids.

Host: 00:17:15

That's right, Exactly.

Host: 00:17:17

And showing him and showing everyone around you that you're human is not part of that formula.

Jay Reed: 00:17:24

But unfortunately, then Ryan thought talking about his problems wasn't something he should do.

Jay Reed: 00:17:29

So when you asked earlier, what should parents do?

Jay Reed: 00:17:31

I'm like, you have to talk to your kids more than I did.

Jay Reed: 00:17:34

And you have to.

Jay Reed: 00:17:34

If you see something that doesn't look right, you have to ask them, have you thought about hurting yourself?

Jay Reed: 00:17:41

And that is a hard conversation for a parent to have, because in their mind, they're going.

Jay Reed: 00:17:47

I'm not going to say, have you ever thought about suicide to my kid?

Host: 00:17:50

Right?

Jay Reed: 00:17:51

Let me help you.

Jay Reed: 00:17:53

The idea is in their head.

Jay Reed: 00:17:55

Most of them have thought about it or at least aware that it exists.

Jay Reed: 00:18:01

And if you don't ask, you may not find out.

Jay Reed: 00:18:05

And if you do ask, a lot of them want to tell you.

Jay Reed: 00:18:11

They're just like, yes, I've thought about it.

Jay Reed: 00:18:12

What do I do?

Host: 00:18:14

You open that door and remember, this.

Jay Reed: 00:18:17

Is the big thing, too, because I was so guilty of this.

Jay Reed: 00:18:20

They come to you and they want to talk.

Jay Reed: 00:18:21

They finally open up and talk to you and they tell you how they're just so overwhelmed and the world is tough and all this stuff.

Jay Reed: 00:18:30

And what's our natural response as parents, especially as dads?

Jay Reed: 00:18:34

Hey, let me tell you why you should be really happy, right?

Jay Reed: 00:18:39

Your life is perfect compared to when I grew up.

Jay Reed: 00:18:43

You know what my father was like, holy crap.

Jay Reed: 00:18:46

You have no idea what it's like to.

Jay Reed: 00:18:48

Why are you upset about anything?

Jay Reed: 00:18:51

Because we want to fix it, right?

Jay Reed: 00:18:52

We want to show them that something's better, that their life is great, and we think we're doing the right thing.

Jay Reed: 00:18:56

And what we're doing is we're driving them deeper into a hole because they just came to you and told you whether it's rational to you or not.

Jay Reed: 00:19:04

They told you they're not feeling right about life.

Jay Reed: 00:19:07

Trying to fix it just makes them go, I shouldn't talk to you about this.

Host: 00:19:11

We're all.

Host: 00:19:12

Every one of us, every parent is guilty of.

Host: 00:19:16

Because we do.

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We just want to make it better.

Host: 00:19:18

We want them not to be sad, not to be scared.

Host: 00:19:22

We want them to be happy.

Host: 00:19:23

We want them to find their passion.

Host: 00:19:26

We are in uncharted territory, right?

Host: 00:19:28

Because there's a huge disconnect and it seems very big between what we learned, what we know, and what will help us to be successful parents and help just have that connection with our kids.

Jay Reed: 00:19:48

And we want to believe that.

Jay Reed: 00:19:50

When you talk to someone like myself who's never experienced depression, we don't understand.

Jay Reed: 00:19:56

So I can look for someone who's depressed.

Jay Reed: 00:19:58

I've learned this now.

Jay Reed: 00:19:59

It can be a sunny day, and I look up and it's a sunny day.

Jay Reed: 00:20:01

And what do they see?

Jay Reed: 00:20:02

They see clouds.

Jay Reed: 00:20:04

And you go, there's not a cloud in the sky.

Jay Reed: 00:20:06

No, there's clouds in the sky.

Jay Reed: 00:20:07

There's not a cloud in the sky.

Jay Reed: 00:20:09

No, it's a cloudy day.

Jay Reed: 00:20:10

You can't understand their minds.

Jay Reed: 00:20:12

And so don't try to understand their minds except the fact that they see what they see and they feel what they feel and just hold them tight and love them.

Jay Reed: 00:20:21

Let them talk about it.

Host: 00:20:24

Yep, that is spot on.

Host: 00:20:27

They need to feel heard and they need to feel loved.

Jay Reed: 00:20:31

That's what they need.

Jay Reed: 00:20:34

And that's how.

Jay Reed: 00:20:35

Honestly, my mission is saying that we should end teen suicide as opposed to raise awareness about it.

Jay Reed: 00:20:41

And that's really how we do it as parents.

Jay Reed: 00:20:44

We take responsibility for the mental health of our kids the same way as we take responsibility for the how they feel when they have a flu or a headache.

Host: 00:20:59

So I now want to introduce my guest for today, who I am so excited for you to hear from.

Host: 00:21:09

Her name is Cara McNulty.

Host: 00:21:11

She is a DPA and she is the president of Aetna Behavioral Health, which is part of the CVS Health Company.

Host: 00:21:20

She is passionate about supporting and advocating for our adolescents, teens and young Adults, as well as educating people of all ages, the importance of mental health well being.

Host: 00:21:34

Cara, thank you so much for being here with me today and discussing this really important topic.

Host: 00:21:42

It's very timely as we are in the month of suicide prevention awareness and I believe that you have some really important, not only information, but tips to share with us today.

Host: 00:21:56

So I'm really excited to just jump in and learn from you and have my audience learn from you.

Host: 00:22:05

So I would like to just get started with you telling us who you are and how you got into just being really focused on mental health and suicide prevention specifically.

Cara McNulty: 00:22:19

Thank you first of all, Heather, for having me.

Cara McNulty: 00:22:21

I am passionate about mental health and mental well being and it's an honor to be here.

Cara McNulty: 00:22:28

And so I am passionate about supporting children, families and communities in addressing mental health wellbeing so that everyone can be their best.

Host: 00:22:40

You are in the middle of it, getting to experience it with your own kids, which I think sometimes is.

Host: 00:22:48

It makes everything a little bit more amplified.

Host: 00:22:51

Do you find that?

Cara McNulty: 00:22:53

Absolutely.

Cara McNulty: 00:22:54

Yes, absolutely.

Cara McNulty: 00:22:56

I often say that parenting, and even before I had children, my husband and I have 19 nieces and nephews.

Cara McNulty: 00:23:05

Being an aunt and uncle is the most rewarding and the most challenging work that I have done and will ever do.

Host: 00:23:15

What I really love that you are doing is, or what you've been doing is this study and this focus on mental health, which has really started to come in the forefront of, oh, this is important.

Host: 00:23:32

And not just important, but it's equally important to physical health.

Host: 00:23:36

Paying attention to mental health, it's not you're broken, it's not something's wrong with you, it's something that is just part of how you're made.

Host: 00:23:49

So I'm wondering if you can talk about that because you've been studying this kind of through this wonderful emergence.

Cara McNulty: 00:23:58

Absolutely.

Cara McNulty: 00:23:59

Heather, you're spot on.

Cara McNulty: 00:24:01

We aren't separate beings.

Cara McNulty: 00:24:05

We are our heads, we are our hearts, we are our whole self.

Cara McNulty: 00:24:09

And to separate those two out really increases stigma and bifurcates support.

Cara McNulty: 00:24:17

And for a long time that's how we treated mental health, as if it is something separate.

Cara McNulty: 00:24:24

And you'll hear me use the term mental wellbeing because mental wellbeing is at the core of our health.

Cara McNulty: 00:24:32

It is at the absolute core.

Cara McNulty: 00:24:34

Without strong mental health wellbeing, it impacts your physical health, it impacts your social health, it impacts your ability to connect with others.

Cara McNulty: 00:24:46

And so your mental health well being is at the core.

Cara McNulty: 00:24:51

And so we can't separate our heads from our hearts, from our physical, from who we Are.

Cara McNulty: 00:24:57

So that's number one.

Cara McNulty: 00:24:59

And often people say to me, oh my gosh, you have two teenagers.

Cara McNulty: 00:25:03

How can you even.

Cara McNulty: 00:25:05

Isn't it so hard?

Cara McNulty: 00:25:07

Oh my gosh, the teenage years.

Cara McNulty: 00:25:08

And one of the things, Heather, that I always go to is how lucky am I to have two teenagers and to be an advocate for teens and young adults because they're the coolest, unique, different, fierce, often unheard group of individuals I believe we have in our communities.

Cara McNulty: 00:25:31

And helping them be their best is where we as adults have just an awesome opportunity.

Cara McNulty: 00:25:38

And so absolutely there has been this awareness and rising of the importance for mental health and mental well being.

Cara McNulty: 00:25:47

And now is our time as communities and adults to support these unbelievable young, vibrant adolescents.

Host: 00:25:57

Right.

Host: 00:25:57

I love that you said that.

Host: 00:26:00

I was just having that conversation with my third, she's 16 yesterday, and she was saying, oh, people just, they blow us off, they don't listen to what we have to say.

Host: 00:26:12

And I said that is true.

Host: 00:26:14

I said, but you just keep going because your voices are so powerful.

Host: 00:26:18

And it is a perspective that as a adults we lose.

Host: 00:26:22

Once you go through, you get into your 30s, 40s, you lose that kind of just lovely, pure way of looking at things.

Host: 00:26:31

And they do, they have this fabulous energy and this, it is so extraordinary and we can learn so much from them.

Host: 00:26:38

And I think that is, to your point, such a gift.

Cara McNulty: 00:26:43

First, we have to start with.

Cara McNulty: 00:26:47

Mental well being is something we focus on every single day.

Cara McNulty: 00:26:51

And that means all of us, no matter who we are, will experience some kind of mental well being disruption.

Cara McNulty: 00:27:01

It might be stress, it might be situational anxiety, it might be feeling as if we don't fit in, it might be substance use, it might be a serious mental illness, but everyone will experience it and in life will experience some really amazing things.

Cara McNulty: 00:27:22

And with that also comes grief and loss.

Cara McNulty: 00:27:24

So everyone will have some kind of mental health disruption in their lives.

Cara McNulty: 00:27:30

So important that we acknowledge that this is normal, this is completely normal.

Cara McNulty: 00:27:36

Number two is that we embrace this, that this isn't something that we shouldn't talk about.

Cara McNulty: 00:27:42

This is how do we talk about this even more.

Cara McNulty: 00:27:46

And if there's anything that's come out of the pandemic, it is the ability to listen to those adolescent and young teen voices in a magnified manner.

Cara McNulty: 00:27:58

They are telling us what they need.

Cara McNulty: 00:28:00

They are saying, I am isolated, I feel lonely, I am scared, I don't understand.

Cara McNulty: 00:28:08

And if we listen and if we pay attention, they're telling us what they need.

Cara McNulty: 00:28:12

If you look at the data, the CDC puts out an unbelievable report called the Youth Risk Behavior Survey.

Cara McNulty: 00:28:24

And when we look at that data, nearly 10% of youth grades nine through 12 thought about, at least thought about or attempted suicide once.

Cara McNulty: 00:28:37

10%.

Cara McNulty: 00:28:38

And if you think about during the pandemic, young adults in College, age 1 in 4, contemplated hurting themselves.

Cara McNulty: 00:28:47

People are thinking about it.

Cara McNulty: 00:28:49

People are lonely.

Cara McNulty: 00:28:50

People are scared.

Cara McNulty: 00:28:52

And what we have the power to do is bring voice and sound and support and resources to this population.

Host: 00:29:03

Right.

Cara McNulty: 00:29:03

You can demystify that.

Cara McNulty: 00:29:05

You are on your own and you're alone, because you're not.

Host: 00:29:09

No, no.

Host: 00:29:11

And I think that is one of the most important pieces of this, is letting them know they are not alone.

Host: 00:29:18

And I hear you, I see you, I hear you.

Host: 00:29:23

We can do something about this.

Host: 00:29:24

There are things that can be done.

Host: 00:29:26

And so I think that is just incredibly powerful.

Host: 00:29:31

And I do, even though this is going to sound weird, but I think it is actually one of the weird positives that have come from this pandemic is that there has been this spotlight put on mental health and for our kids.

Host: 00:29:49

Our teenagers are really for our entire population.

Host: 00:29:53

Right.

Host: 00:29:54

And I.

Host: 00:29:56

I get very excited about that and just so happy when we have these conversations because they're so important.

Cara McNulty: 00:30:04

It's so true.

Cara McNulty: 00:30:05

There is so many pos positives that have come, and we have to think as communities, as health care providers, as parents.

Cara McNulty: 00:30:16

Are we listening?

Cara McNulty: 00:30:17

And often I get asked, what can I do?

Cara McNulty: 00:30:20

Or as an aunt or an uncle or as a community member or a neighbor, someone who works with teens and adolescents.

Cara McNulty: 00:30:28

And maybe I can just share a couple of things.

Host: 00:30:30

Of course, yes, we, we.

Cara McNulty: 00:30:32

There has been a myth that if you talk about suicide, that it encourages suicide.

Cara McNulty: 00:30:39

And we know that isn't true.

Host: 00:30:41

Yeah.

Cara McNulty: 00:30:42

Talking about suicide, talking about openly about struggles and listening to what people are saying and asking people, I hear you struggling and I hear you saying that some things that concern me.

Cara McNulty: 00:30:59

Are you thinking about hurting yourself?

Cara McNulty: 00:31:01

Are you thinking about harming yourself?

Cara McNulty: 00:31:03

Have you thought about suicide?

Cara McNulty: 00:31:06

Those conversations are hard and they take courage.

Cara McNulty: 00:31:09

What we know is they don't encourage suicide.

Cara McNulty: 00:31:12

What they do is they discourage.

Cara McNulty: 00:31:15

And it helps our young adults and teens feel heard.

Cara McNulty: 00:31:21

One myth I want to get right out of the way is talking about it only improves what happens, only improves.

Cara McNulty: 00:31:31

So to really debunk that we shouldn't be talking about it and asking those hard questions, it takes practice.

Host: 00:31:39

It does absolutely take practice.

Host: 00:31:41

It absolutely does.

Host: 00:31:43

And it is hard.

Cara McNulty: 00:31:45

It is hard.

Cara McNulty: 00:31:46

Here's the reality is we don't have to do it perfect.

Cara McNulty: 00:31:50

The words don't have to come out beautifully.

Cara McNulty: 00:31:54

We just have to.

Cara McNulty: 00:31:55

We have to say them.

Cara McNulty: 00:31:57

Are you okay?

Cara McNulty: 00:31:58

I hear you sound like you're struggling.

Cara McNulty: 00:32:01

Are you thinking about harming yourself?

Cara McNulty: 00:32:04

Have you thought about harming yourself?

Cara McNulty: 00:32:07

Are you thinking about suicide?

Cara McNulty: 00:32:09

And those things become easier the more we talk about them.

Host: 00:32:15

Jackie is the director of the Teen Suicide Prevention Society, which is a nonprofit 501.

Host: 00:32:24

And their mission is to make teen suicide a thing of the past.

Host: 00:32:29

And the way that they go about this is different than anything else that we have come across.

Host: 00:32:36

I am really excited for you to learn from her today and to just hear all of the information that she has to offer us and to share with us and really teach us about how we should have these talks that save lives.

Host: 00:32:55

That's what she calls them.

Host: 00:32:56

And they truly are just amazing.

Host: 00:33:01

They're not about the doom and gloom.

Host: 00:33:03

They're not scary.

Host: 00:33:05

And this will just really, I think, give you such a shift.

Host: 00:33:09

So without further ado, I am so excited to share Jackie Simmons with you.

Host: 00:33:17

So, Jackie, I am so excited that you are here with us today and that we get to hear not only your really moving story, but what you have been doing with your story and with your life and with this passion project that you have.

Host: 00:33:38

So let's just start out with telling my audience a little bit about you and what got you into this type of work.

Jackie Simmons: 00:33:50

Oh, thank you.

Jackie Simmons: 00:33:52

What got me into this type of work, what gets us on your podcast is the fact that we're parents and we've been there, done that, and survived to tell the story.

Jackie Simmons: 00:34:05

And my story of how I got into doing what I'm doing now as the director of the Teen Suicide Prevention Society is not even my story.

Jackie Simmons: 00:34:19

It's my daughter Stephanie's story.

Jackie Simmons: 00:34:22

At the age of 37, delivering a seven minute message that matters in the front of a room, her first public speaking, she had been part of a group that I'd been coaching to deliver these seven minute talks.

Jackie Simmons: 00:34:36

And she was the first one speaking that day.

Jackie Simmons: 00:34:40

She was in a state.

Jackie Simmons: 00:34:41

She was both nervous and excited.

Jackie Simmons: 00:34:43

That state you get into right before you give a talk.

Host: 00:34:46

Yes.

Jackie Simmons: 00:34:47

Oh, my God, Heather.

Jackie Simmons: 00:34:49

Everything worked that day.

Jackie Simmons: 00:34:51

The videographer was set.

Jackie Simmons: 00:34:53

The slides worked, the microphones worked, the audience took their seats.

Jackie Simmons: 00:34:59

I'm super proud of my daughter.

Jackie Simmons: 00:35:00

Oh, my God.

Jackie Simmons: 00:35:01

She looked amazing in her dark blouse and flowery skirt and her hair was all pulled up in combs.

Jackie Simmons: 00:35:07

She was first up on the speaker's roster.

Jackie Simmons: 00:35:10

The lights dimmed and I welcomed her to the front of the stage.

Jackie Simmons: 00:35:15

Everyone, help me welcome Stephanie Ashton.

Jackie Simmons: 00:35:18

She Confidently walked up and shook my hand, and I went to the back of the room.

Jackie Simmons: 00:35:25

And she said, 3,000 teenagers will attempt to take their own lives today in the United States.

Jackie Simmons: 00:35:37

And I went, huh?

Jackie Simmons: 00:35:39

Thank God.

Jackie Simmons: 00:35:40

I was in the back of the room, and nobody could see my expression.

Jackie Simmons: 00:35:43

I didn't know the number was that large.

Jackie Simmons: 00:35:47

I had no clue.

Jackie Simmons: 00:35:49

And Heather, I did not know that suicide was her topic.

Host: 00:35:55

Oh, my goodness.

Jackie Simmons: 00:35:58

Oh.

Jackie Simmons: 00:35:58

She continued with, when I was 14, after a bad day of shopping, I stood in my bathroom.

Jackie Simmons: 00:36:09

The pain of not fitting into any clothes was just more proof that I didn't fit in anywhere.

Jackie Simmons: 00:36:21

And that pain was more than I could bear.

Jackie Simmons: 00:36:26

So I took a razor and cut into my left eye, trying to stop the pain.

Jackie Simmons: 00:36:34

And in my life, in the back of the room, I could feel the blood drain from my face.

Jackie Simmons: 00:36:45

Because while I had lived through that with her for over 20, 23 years, we hadn't really talked about it.

Jackie Simmons: 00:36:57

Have you ever been hijacked by a bad memory?

Host: 00:37:01

Yes.

Jackie Simmons: 00:37:03

Only my 30 years of stress management training kept me from just crawling into a corner and bawling my eyes out.

Jackie Simmons: 00:37:13

Stephanie continued her talk with.

Jackie Simmons: 00:37:17

It wasn't my only attempt.

Jackie Simmons: 00:37:19

There were others, but outside of getting professional help, I've never really talked about it.

Jackie Simmons: 00:37:27

Not even with mom.

Jackie Simmons: 00:37:29

Mom and I talked around it.

Jackie Simmons: 00:37:32

It was too awkward, too painful, easy to avoid.

Jackie Simmons: 00:37:39

We had the other talks.

Jackie Simmons: 00:37:41

We had the talk about sex, and mom and I had to talk about drugs, and we had to talk about alcohol.

Jackie Simmons: 00:37:49

And then I went to college on a dry campus.

Jackie Simmons: 00:37:52

And the next thing she said was, but we didn't talk about suicide.

Jackie Simmons: 00:38:00

And I still struggle with suicidal thoughts.

Jackie Simmons: 00:38:06

In the back of the room, I went from pale to bone cold as I realized the struggles that my child had faced alone because I didn't have the courage to talk about suicide.

Jackie Simmons: 00:38:25

She finished her talk with, on my suicide avoidant journey, I've learned tons of coping skills, and now I want to teach those skills to teens before they need them.

Jackie Simmons: 00:38:41

Yes, before they need them.

Jackie Simmons: 00:38:43

Oh, my God.

Jackie Simmons: 00:38:44

There was not a dry eye in the room, including mine.

Jackie Simmons: 00:38:48

And in the back of the room, I was frozen, absolutely torn between pride for her bravery and guilt and shame for my cowardice.

Jackie Simmons: 00:39:04

And then an interesting thing happened in my brain, heather.

Jackie Simmons: 00:39:08

I realized 3,000 teens attempting to take their own lives every day mean that every day, 6,000 parents start to live the guilt nightmare that I've lived.

Jackie Simmons: 00:39:24

And every day, over 20,000 grandparents, aunts, uncles, brothers and sisters start to live that nightmare.

Jackie Simmons: 00:39:35

And every day, hundreds of thousands of classmates Teachers, boyfriends, girlfriends, start to live the guilt nightmare.

Jackie Simmons: 00:39:48

All probably just as blindsided by it as I had been.

Jackie Simmons: 00:39:54

What if Stephanie was right?

Jackie Simmons: 00:39:56

What if the key to stopping teen suicide was as simple as having the talk about suicide before you think it's needed, before your child starts to struggle with suicidal thoughts?

Jackie Simmons: 00:40:13

Oh, my God.

Jackie Simmons: 00:40:14

The missing link.

Jackie Simmons: 00:40:15

Something so simple and obvious that professionals have tripped over it.

Jackie Simmons: 00:40:20

After that event, Stephanie and I decided to work together.

Jackie Simmons: 00:40:25

Who knew that was possible?

Jackie Simmons: 00:40:27

Along with her two sisters, we founded the Teen Suicide Prevention Society and started figuring out how to help people have the talk.

Jackie Simmons: 00:40:41

So we call it the talk that saves lives.

Jackie Simmons: 00:40:45

And that's the mission that we're on now, is to make sure that everyone knows not only that the talk is needed, but how to have it in a way that doesn't make your teens eyes roll back in their head.

Jackie Simmons: 00:41:02

I don't know about you, but have you ever tried to have the talk about one of those topics with a kid?

Ann Moss Rogers: 00:41:10

Oh, all of the above.

Host: 00:41:13

How does a parent approach this?

Host: 00:41:15

Because it is scary.

Jackie Simmons: 00:41:17

Oh, I'm so glad you asked.

Jackie Simmons: 00:41:19

Actually, I have a great idea.

Jackie Simmons: 00:41:20

Because what we did was we created a guide, an absolute.

Jackie Simmons: 00:41:24

Let's give you the.

Jackie Simmons: 00:41:26

That you can ride on to have this talk.

Jackie Simmons: 00:41:29

And we created a really unique way to get it started.

Jackie Simmons: 00:41:32

But instead of talking about it, would it be okay if we just role play it and we demonstrate it?

Host: 00:41:38

Sure, sure.

Jay Reed: 00:41:39

Cool.

Jackie Simmons: 00:41:40

Okay, so here's the invitation to the talk.

Ann Moss Rogers: 00:41:43

Okay.

Jackie Simmons: 00:41:44

Hey, Heather.

Jackie Simmons: 00:41:45

I'm part of the mission to make teen suicide a thing of the past.

Jackie Simmons: 00:41:50

They gave me a guide and I need to practice it.

Jackie Simmons: 00:41:54

Would you have a few minutes to help me practice my guide?

Host: 00:41:58

I would be delighted to.

Jackie Simmons: 00:42:01

Awesome.

Jackie Simmons: 00:42:02

It's only four questions.

Jackie Simmons: 00:42:03

Are you ready?

Host: 00:42:04

Yes.

Jackie Simmons: 00:42:05

All right.

Jackie Simmons: 00:42:06

Question one.

Jackie Simmons: 00:42:07

Heather, have you heard about the rise in teen suicides?

Host: 00:42:13

I haven't.

Host: 00:42:14

Will you tell me about it?

Jackie Simmons: 00:42:17

Thank you.

Jackie Simmons: 00:42:18

In a minute.

Host: 00:42:19

Okay.

Jackie Simmons: 00:42:21

Question two.

Jackie Simmons: 00:42:24

Heather, do you have a story?

Jackie Simmons: 00:42:26

Do you have a friend who's tried or died?

Host: 00:42:30

Yes, I do have a story.

Host: 00:42:33

Several.

Jackie Simmons: 00:42:35

Thank you.

Jackie Simmons: 00:42:38

Question three.

Jackie Simmons: 00:42:40

Heather, have you ever thought of leaving that way?

Host: 00:42:44

Yes, I have.

Jackie Simmons: 00:42:48

Thank you.

Jackie Simmons: 00:42:49

Question 4.

Jackie Simmons: 00:42:51

Heather, why stay?

Jackie Simmons: 00:42:53

What are your reasons for staying?

Host: 00:42:56

So many.

Host: 00:42:58

My biggest reasons.

Host: 00:42:59

My husband and my kids.

Jackie Simmons: 00:43:03

What else?

Host: 00:43:06

This beautiful life.

Host: 00:43:08

There's just too much beauty and too much that I am passionate and curious about.

Jackie Simmons: 00:43:16

Another way to look at it.

Jackie Simmons: 00:43:18

Heather, what's so good about your life that you want more of it?

Host: 00:43:27

Oh, my goodness.

Host: 00:43:28

I think I'm making this harder than it's supposed to be.

Host: 00:43:30

Being Here, just.

Host: 00:43:32

It's a gift.

Jackie Simmons: 00:43:35

And one of the fun things about this Heather, so thank you.

Jackie Simmons: 00:43:39

Yay.

Jackie Simmons: 00:43:41

So that's the talk.

Jackie Simmons: 00:43:43

It is just that simple on the outside.

Jackie Simmons: 00:43:48

Anyone can do it.

Jackie Simmons: 00:43:50

We've wrapped a full training program around it and it's all available for free on our website.

Jackie Simmons: 00:43:57

I love that what happened in your brain is something that.

Jackie Simmons: 00:44:05

Are you familiar with neuroplasticity, the neuroscience that's out now?

Jackie Simmons: 00:44:09

What's happened in the last decade or so is fascinating with how the brain really works.

Ann Moss Rogers: 00:44:15

It is.

Host: 00:44:16

It's extraordinary.

Host: 00:44:17

Yes.

Host: 00:44:17

I'd like to learn how this, how these things correlate.

Jackie Simmons: 00:44:21

All right, here we go.

Jackie Simmons: 00:44:22

You have had a neural network that had emotional energy around the topic of suicide.

Jackie Simmons: 00:44:30

Okay, so the first three questions are closed ended questions.

Jackie Simmons: 00:44:34

All of the coaches I've ever trained freak out when they first read the guide because they're like, it's a closed ended question.

Jackie Simmons: 00:44:39

And I'm like, yes, and you will keep it this way.

Jackie Simmons: 00:44:43

These are verbatim questions.

Jackie Simmons: 00:44:45

Everybody promises to actually read the guide.

Jackie Simmons: 00:44:48

And now you see why?

Jackie Simmons: 00:44:49

Because when I stopped reading the guide, I flubbed the question.

Jackie Simmons: 00:44:52

You're activating all of that energy, all of the memories, all of that emotion, and then in a second, the minute your brain starts looking for reasons for staying, all of that energy gets and pushed over into a brand new neural network that starts being built out.

Jackie Simmons: 00:45:13

It's like a new file folder in the filing cabinet in your mind, and it's labeled reasons for staying.

Jackie Simmons: 00:45:23

So now your reticular activating system.

Jackie Simmons: 00:45:27

This is the filter in your brain that allows in less than 10% of what you're exposed to, because otherwise we'd go crazy.

Host: 00:45:35

Right.

Jackie Simmons: 00:45:35

What it allows in is the percentage that is most closely aligned with where your thinking is, what you believe, what you think about habitually.

Jackie Simmons: 00:45:45

So now you've got this new thought, this new file folder labeled reasons for staying.

Jackie Simmons: 00:45:52

So if a random thought of leaving, which is normal, according to Sigmund Freud, suicidal thoughts are normal.

Jackie Simmons: 00:46:00

They're part of the natural negative bias and problem solving mechanism of our brain.

Jackie Simmons: 00:46:05

Worst case scenario.

Jackie Simmons: 00:46:07

So they're natural, they're normal.

Jackie Simmons: 00:46:09

Now one of those thoughts of leaving comes in, it's got to bump up against this file folder of reasons for staying.

Jackie Simmons: 00:46:16

So you're less likely to get hooked by it and into a negative echo chamber.

Jackie Simmons: 00:46:21

And all that happened in that very short time.

Host: 00:46:25

Wow.

Host: 00:46:27

Less than five minutes.

Jackie Simmons: 00:46:29

Less than five minutes.

Jackie Simmons: 00:46:30

You took on a layer of emotional Teflon.

Jackie Simmons: 00:46:34

Now here's something freaky.

Jackie Simmons: 00:46:36

You ready?

Host: 00:46:37

Yes.

Jackie Simmons: 00:46:38

So did everyone listening, really?

Jackie Simmons: 00:46:43

Because of something called mirror neurons in the mind, in the brain.

Jackie Simmons: 00:46:50

When you started looking, when I started asking you the questions, everybody listening, their brains started answering the questions too.

Jackie Simmons: 00:46:59

Because we can't help but answer a question.

Jackie Simmons: 00:47:02

It's how our brains are wired.

Host: 00:47:05

Yeah.

Jackie Simmons: 00:47:06

So questions are very powerful.

Jackie Simmons: 00:47:08

So everyone listening got this journey, and as soon as you went into your reasons for staying, their brains went into theirs, and they started comparing, contrasting, adding to the reasons for staying folder in their own mind.

Jackie Simmons: 00:47:26

Now they have your reasons for staying.

Jackie Simmons: 00:47:28

And their brain was like, yeah, that's me.

Jackie Simmons: 00:47:30

No, that's not me.

Jackie Simmons: 00:47:31

I've got this one.

Jackie Simmons: 00:47:31

She didn't say that one.

Jackie Simmons: 00:47:33

I wonder what.

Kevin Wong: 00:47:33

Yeah.

Jackie Simmons: 00:47:34

And so this chatter is going on in their heads, activating this new neural pathway, filling the file folder labeled reasons for staying.

Host: 00:47:44

That's amazing.

Host: 00:47:47

That is so cool.

Host: 00:47:48

And I love science.

Host: 00:47:49

That is the coolest science that I've heard in a while.

Host: 00:49:04

I am absolutely thrilled to introduce the guests that I have for today, and this is just a really big treat for us because Kevin Wong is from the Trevor Project, which you all know I love and we talk about a lot, and so I'm thrilled to have him here today.

Host: 00:49:26

Kevin is the Vice President of communications for the Trevor Project.

Host: 00:49:30

The Trevor Project is the world's largest suicide prevention and mental health organization for LGBTQ young people.

Host: 00:49:40

He oversees the organization's communication strategy, including media relations, celebrity engagement, internal and executive communications, speaking engagements and awards, crisis communications, and more.

Host: 00:49:56

So, Kevin, thank you.

Host: 00:49:58

Thank you so much for being here.

Host: 00:49:59

I am delighted and honored and just thank you.

Kevin Wong: 00:50:04

Thank you so much for having me.

Host: 00:50:05

I'm grateful that you had some time today to talk, because 12 months a year, 365 days a year, the Trevor Project is amazing.

Host: 00:50:15

And you all are doing.

Host: 00:50:16

Doing really amazing things.

Host: 00:50:18

But I thought this would be a particularly good time of year to talk with you, since September is Suicide Prevention Awareness Month.

Host: 00:50:28

So to that end, I thought it would be really awesome if, in your words, could tell us who the Trevor Project is.

Kevin Wong: 00:50:37

So, National Suicide Prevention Awareness Month.

Kevin Wong: 00:50:40

You may have seen some of these stats or heard these stats before, but the CDC tells us that suicide is the second leading cause of death among young people.

Kevin Wong: 00:50:49

The CDC also tells us that out of.

Kevin Wong: 00:50:52

That's already a pretty dark statistic, but out of that, LGBTQ young people are more than four times more likely to attempt suicide than their peers.

Kevin Wong: 00:51:01

Our own research shows us that 45% of LGBTQ youth seriously considered attempting suicide in the past year.

Kevin Wong: 00:51:10

And it's a Little darker for trans young people.

Kevin Wong: 00:51:14

Nearly 1 in 5 trans and non binary youth attempted suicide.

Kevin Wong: 00:51:18

So these are pretty stark stats.

Kevin Wong: 00:51:20

The Trevor Project exists for LGBTQ young people to find the support that they need.

Kevin Wong: 00:51:26

You already said it up top.

Kevin Wong: 00:51:28

We're the world's largest suicide prevention and mental health organization for LGBTQ young people.

Kevin Wong: 00:51:33

But let me lay out our program so you can know what that means in practicality.

Kevin Wong: 00:51:37

So we run 24, 7 free and confidential crisis services for LGBTQ youth.

Kevin Wong: 00:51:43

So that's our lifeline.

Kevin Wong: 00:51:44

Chat and text.

Kevin Wong: 00:51:46

You can reach a highly trained counselor.

Kevin Wong: 00:51:48

You can talk with them about anything from, hey, I had a really tough day at school today, or I'm just having a tough breakup.

Kevin Wong: 00:51:55

I need to talk through it all the way to, hey, I'm imminently thinking about killing myself.

Kevin Wong: 00:52:01

All of those things fit within whatever a young person thinks a crisis might be to them.

Kevin Wong: 00:52:07

Right.

Kevin Wong: 00:52:07

Emotions are specific to different people.

Kevin Wong: 00:52:09

So that's our crisis services and crisis intervention.

Kevin Wong: 00:52:12

We also have suicide prevention programs that we call our key program areas, and they help us prevent suicide.

Kevin Wong: 00:52:19

We help.

Kevin Wong: 00:52:20

We have these programs to help prevent young people from being in a moment of crisis in the first place.

Kevin Wong: 00:52:24

So that's research.

Kevin Wong: 00:52:26

We just talked through some of that education.

Kevin Wong: 00:52:29

So making sure that youth facing adults who interact with young people, all the different companies that we work with, different partners and peer organizations, they're educated on suicide risk, working with LGBTQ young people and LGBTQ competencies, et cetera.

Kevin Wong: 00:52:43

So research, education, advocacy, making sure that we're fighting and protecting young people federally, statewide, and in different municipalities.

Kevin Wong: 00:52:53

And peer support.

Kevin Wong: 00:52:54

That's our last key program area, peer support.

Kevin Wong: 00:52:57

We have a platform called Trevor Space.

Kevin Wong: 00:53:00

That's our safe space social networking site where young people can find peer support.

Kevin Wong: 00:53:05

So that might look like a trans young person in Kansas who says they may post, hey, I'm having this kind of experience with my parents.

Kevin Wong: 00:53:14

Anyone else out there who can help me, and maybe somebody in Paris answers, and they say, I'm having this exact same challenge.

Kevin Wong: 00:53:21

Here's what I did.

Kevin Wong: 00:53:21

And they can help each other through that.

Kevin Wong: 00:53:23

Peer support is almost a different type of protective factor versus a risk factor.

Kevin Wong: 00:53:27

A protective factor where you can see how somebody else might have played out a certain situation.

Kevin Wong: 00:53:32

Crisis services, research, education, advocacy, and peer support.

Host: 00:53:36

That's incredible.

Host: 00:53:38

That is really the one thing that, of course, that I use the most is the research, which you always have new and just.

Host: 00:53:47

You're on the cutting edge of research when it comes to understanding what is going on in the LGBTQ community.

Host: 00:53:55

And I Love that.

Host: 00:53:56

You've also then added on.

Host: 00:53:57

You can talked a little bit about doing the advocacy piece with, you know, stepping into, this is what's going on in different states, and this is what's going on in the country, and this is what's going on in the world, and how do we.

Host: 00:54:09

What can we do about that?

Host: 00:54:12

And that is a really.

Host: 00:54:13

Obviously, it's becoming more and more of an important piece right now, and I would like to talk about that, but really quickly, I just want to touch on the peer support, because that is something that I don't think a lot of people realize is available, and that is a question that I get asked a lot, is, is there a space that, you know, my child can go to to talk to somebody else who is trans or who is gay or who is struggling with this particular struggle?

Host: 00:54:46

Right.

Host: 00:54:46

Whether it's something at school or something.

Host: 00:54:49

Whatever it is.

Host: 00:54:50

So I love that there is that, aside from the crisis piece, which is those are two different things.

Host: 00:54:58

And so really, how.

Host: 00:55:01

What is the best way do you find to make this information known, not just to parents, but to our LGBTQ youth, to our kids?

Kevin Wong: 00:55:11

Yeah.

Kevin Wong: 00:55:12

So you hit the nail on the head.

Kevin Wong: 00:55:13

Peer support can be very powerful, and you do not need to be at imminent risk of suicide or suicidal thoughts to sign up for Trevor Space.

Kevin Wong: 00:55:22

TrevorSpace.org is the website.

Kevin Wong: 00:55:25

So Trevor Space, it's one of those things that my wish and my hope for most young people that they knew this was available to them.

Kevin Wong: 00:55:33

It is an international program, so it already is pretty widely used.

Kevin Wong: 00:55:37

I'm trying to remember the exact usage, but I think it's something like 500k.

Kevin Wong: 00:55:41

Young people use this already, and that's international.

Kevin Wong: 00:55:45

Right.

Kevin Wong: 00:55:45

So the really cool thing is there are interest groups within Trevor Space.

Kevin Wong: 00:55:51

So LGBTQ people, you've probably heard this before.

Kevin Wong: 00:55:54

LGBTQ people, young people especially.

Kevin Wong: 00:55:56

Not a monolith.

Kevin Wong: 00:55:57

Right.

Kevin Wong: 00:55:58

Just because we maybe are part of the same acronym, we're part of the same gay community, lesbian community, bi community, trans community, et cetera.

Kevin Wong: 00:56:06

We are not a monolith.

Kevin Wong: 00:56:07

So the really cool thing about Trevor Space is that there are different interest groups.

Kevin Wong: 00:56:11

So regardless of how you identify or regardless of your sexual orientation or gender identity, you can find people who maybe share some of those same identities, but also care about the same things, who maybe have the same interests as you.

Kevin Wong: 00:56:24

So that could look like, I'm really into art or art.

Kevin Wong: 00:56:27

The arts.

Kevin Wong: 00:56:28

And you join a group where you're talking about those things among other questions that you may have.

Kevin Wong: 00:56:32

And that's Totally fine.

Kevin Wong: 00:56:33

It's all mixed in.

Kevin Wong: 00:56:34

So another could be for sports or athletes, another could be debate, hobby based or interest based.

Kevin Wong: 00:56:41

And some of those are.

Kevin Wong: 00:56:42

We suggest them because we understand that there are commonalities in certain arenas and others young people are empowered and they ask for those things.

Kevin Wong: 00:56:50

And so our moderators work with young people to make sure that they have spaces to have those conversations where they feel comfortable.

Kevin Wong: 00:56:56

But the safe space aspect is definitely where we want to make sure young people are thriving.

Kevin Wong: 00:57:01

Because, you know, you might feel comfortable asking this certain questions to folks on Trevor space because they share a unique identity or maybe they share some unique interests and maybe you're less comfortable asking a school counselor or maybe you're less comfortable asking a parent.

Kevin Wong: 00:57:17

So having that as a venue for outreach is a really important one.

Host: 00:57:22

Absolutely.

Host: 00:57:23

Now you mentioned moderators on there.

Host: 00:57:25

Is that something that you that that there are people on there who are watching the conversations to make sure that it does remain a safe space or how does that work in there?

Kevin Wong: 00:57:36

Yes.

Kevin Wong: 00:57:36

So we have moderators and they're constantly taking a look at the things that are posted, but at the same time making sure that they're fostering positive community, making sure that they have the resources they need.

Kevin Wong: 00:57:48

And you're also talking about young people who may be at risk or maybe experiencing mental health challenges.

Kevin Wong: 00:57:55

So maybe they also see something that's flagged or they flag it themselves and they make sure they get the resources they need.

Host: 00:58:02

That's really great.

Host: 00:58:04

Now what if another question that comes up, and again, it's not necessarily crisis related, but knowing that there is this safe space, not many kids really want to talk to their parents or another adult, so to speak, like a school counselor about their sexual orientation, about questions they may have about sex or even clothing or how to dress.

Host: 00:58:29

And I'm feeling this way, is that a space where they could ask these type of questions or is this really strictly peer type interaction?

Kevin Wong: 00:58:42

I found myself thinking, so I've been there.

Kevin Wong: 00:58:45

I found myself thinking about my own experiences.

Kevin Wong: 00:58:47

When you ask that question, what I would encourage young people to do is yes, definitely go to the folks you feel comfortable asking certain questions to.

Kevin Wong: 00:58:55

But at the same time remember that you can check out the trevorproject.org resources and there are plenty of things like the Coming out handbook, for instance, or how to support trans and non binary young people.

Kevin Wong: 00:59:08

Those things can help you.

Kevin Wong: 00:59:09

You might not identify with those things, but you can learn a lot about certain identities, including ways to explore, for instance, your gender identity.

Kevin Wong: 00:59:18

That might look like a social Transition and what that means.

Kevin Wong: 00:59:21

Right.

Kevin Wong: 00:59:21

So hair, clothing, name change, etc.

Kevin Wong: 00:59:25

Before making any other decisions.

Kevin Wong: 00:59:27

Or the coming out handbook, for instance, that can help you think through what coming out might look like for you.

Kevin Wong: 00:59:32

Never prescriptive.

Kevin Wong: 00:59:33

Right.

Kevin Wong: 00:59:34

Same with when you call our 247 crisis services.

Kevin Wong: 00:59:36

We will never be the masters of your experience, but we can say, how do we keep you safe?

Kevin Wong: 00:59:43

How do we help you ask certain questions or reflect on what your experience could be in your own situation?

Kevin Wong: 00:59:49

And those things can be really helpful before any young person takes any steps.

Host: 00:59:53

Okay, that's really helpful.

Host: 00:59:55

And I think that a good distinction just so kids and parents alike know where to go, what they can ask, or it's just such a valuable resource that I want to make sure that everyone knows how to use it and really knows the depth of what's available.

Host: 01:00:11

Thank you.

Host: 01:00:12

Thank you.

Host: 01:00:13

So circling back, just I wanted to back up to the advocacy work that you are doing because that is really important.

Host: 01:00:22

It's always been important, but I think it's particularly important right now given some of the bills that are in line to be looked at, voted on, et cetera, et cetera.

Host: 01:00:32

And so I'm wondering if you could just talk a little bit about what the Trevor project is doing as far as that goes.

Kevin Wong: 01:00:40

So for the listeners who might not know, the last couple of years have been really tough for LGBTQ young people and the policies that impact them.

Kevin Wong: 01:00:50

So that's not just federal, that's federal, state, local, municipal.

Kevin Wong: 01:00:55

in: 2022

Kevin Wong: 01:01:07

Many of them target trans and non binary young people and those are generally of two flavors.

Kevin Wong: 01:01:15

Gender affirming, care restriction and ability restricting trans folks ability to play sports that align with their on teams that align with their gender identity.

Kevin Wong: 01:01:24

We do media interviews to spread our research.

Kevin Wong: 01:01:27

We make sure that folks who are setting policy, we have those meetings with them to say this is what you were setting policy around.

Kevin Wong: 01:01:33

Here's the actual research.

Kevin Wong: 01:01:35

Please do your due diligence and make decisions based off of evidence based research.

Kevin Wong: 01:01:39

We will also work with different coalitions, large swaths of organizations to submit letters of support or opposition.

Kevin Wong: 01:01:47

We submit amicus briefs.

Kevin Wong: 01:01:49

This is a long list you're getting, Heather.

Kevin Wong: 01:01:50

But this is all really good work that we do.

Kevin Wong: 01:01:53

All of these things help contribute.

Host: 01:01:55

That is.

Host: 01:01:55

That's exactly what I wanted to know and that's what I think everybody wants to know, like what is being done because we I know that you are.

Host: 01:02:03

That you're working out there, that you're doing all of this work.

Host: 01:02:06

And I think, too, as people who are listening, as people who are parents or whatever, in whatever capacity, what is it that we can do to help?

Host: 01:02:17

Right.

Host: 01:02:17

We know that you're doing all of this great work, and there are other.

Host: 01:02:20

Other organizations that are doing this really important work, but we see all this stuff right, day in and day out on the news.

Host: 01:02:27

We read it online or whatever, and we think, oh, my gosh, be done, or what is being done.

Host: 01:02:32

So I appreciate you sharing all the details because people want to know, and it's nice to hear positive news.

Kevin Wong: 01:02:42

Yeah.

Kevin Wong: 01:02:43

So what you just said, seeing everything in the news, another stat that we have, a little bit of a downer, but the majority of young people, LGBTQ young people, say that recent politics in the news negatively impacts their mental health.

Kevin Wong: 01:02:58

And I know that's.

Kevin Wong: 01:02:59

I'm an adult.

Kevin Wong: 01:02:59

That's definitely true for some of us too.

Kevin Wong: 01:03:02

And for LGBTQ young people, to have your identities, your lives debated on a world stage, a national stage, political stage, whatever it is, maybe you even feel like your identities are being used as political pawns.

Kevin Wong: 01:03:16

That can really hurt.

Kevin Wong: 01:03:19

And in terms of what we can do, what y'all can do, your listeners supporting the Trevor Project is one thing, but if you also want to be one of those folks that we call up in a time of need or text in a time of need, check out the trevorproject.org advocacy.

Kevin Wong: 01:03:32

Sign up for our Phone to Action list.

Kevin Wong: 01:03:35

And when there is an action to be taken in your state, we will definitely hit you up.

Host: 01:03:40

Awesome.

Host: 01:03:41

That is exactly what I wanted to know.

Host: 01:03:43

I'm wondering specifically, when it comes to mental health with your LGBTQ child, what are the things that parents need to look for or be aware of?

Host: 01:03:55

Because I know sometimes as a parent, you can get lost in your process.

Host: 01:03:58

Right.

Host: 01:03:59

Or lost in where you are or how you're seeing things and what you may be seeing as, like, a behavioral issue or may be something totally different.

Host: 01:04:11

Right.

Host: 01:04:11

So I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about things that parents should look for and be aware of.

Jackie Simmons: 01:04:17

Yeah.

Kevin Wong: 01:04:18

So first I'm going to share a personal anecdote.

Kevin Wong: 01:04:22

When I came out to my parents, I won't tell you the exact scenario, but when I came out to my parents, a friend to me said, remember at the time I was 18 to them.

Kevin Wong: 01:04:31

I came out when I was 16 to friends, but 18 to them.

Kevin Wong: 01:04:34

Remember, you've had 18 years to think about this.

Kevin Wong: 01:04:37

Maybe less if you realized a little later.

Kevin Wong: 01:04:40

But you've had many years to think about this.

Kevin Wong: 01:04:42

They are finding out now.

Kevin Wong: 01:04:44

They are knowing now.

Kevin Wong: 01:04:46

So they have less time to understand and less time to educate themselves.

Kevin Wong: 01:04:52

This is not for everyone, but this is my specific example.

Kevin Wong: 01:04:57

Sometimes it does take a little bit of education.

Kevin Wong: 01:05:00

I don't want.

Kevin Wong: 01:05:01

What I don't want is for all LGBTQ young people to have to put that burden on themselves.

Kevin Wong: 01:05:05

But remember, some parents may have to do a little self educating or maybe asking some questions where they just need to learn a little bit more to get to a place of understanding and acceptance.

Kevin Wong: 01:05:16

Acceptance is where I want to end up.

Kevin Wong: 01:05:18

So another part of our research shows that acceptance from just one, at least one adult can decrease an LGBTQ young person's risk for suicide attempt by 40%.

Kevin Wong: 01:05:32

So I'll say that one more time.

Kevin Wong: 01:05:33

40%.

Kevin Wong: 01:05:34

That is huge by public health standards.

Kevin Wong: 01:05:37

Being that one accepting and supportive adult can seriously change the trajectory of a young person's life.

Kevin Wong: 01:05:44

And that does not mean you have to be a clinician, a mental health expert.

Kevin Wong: 01:05:49

You don't even have to know all the things there are to know about LGBTQ competencies.

Kevin Wong: 01:05:53

You just have to accept and support the young person in your life.

Kevin Wong: 01:05:57

That is very powerful.

Kevin Wong: 01:05:59

Now, if we want to get a little more technical, I'm happy to share an acronym that helps folks maybe recognize some of the things that they could do in a moment of crisis for a young person.

Kevin Wong: 01:06:09

And that acronym is CARE C A R, E.

Kevin Wong: 01:06:13

So that stands for connect, ask, respond, and empower.

Kevin Wong: 01:06:18

So C connect, if you notice any warning signs of suicide from someone, reach out to them.

Kevin Wong: 01:06:24

And that could be big changes in behavior.

Kevin Wong: 01:06:26

That could look like exorbitant use of substances or alcohol.

Kevin Wong: 01:06:32

That could look like a really big jump in irritability.

Kevin Wong: 01:06:35

That could look like impulsiveness.

Kevin Wong: 01:06:38

That could also.

Kevin Wong: 01:06:39

You know, one of the reasons why our crisis services exist is to ask straight up.

Kevin Wong: 01:06:44

That's.

Kevin Wong: 01:06:44

This is actually the second letter of the acronym.

Kevin Wong: 01:06:46

A is ask to ask straight up if you were thinking about killing yourself or if you're thinking about suicide.

Kevin Wong: 01:06:51

So ask.

Kevin Wong: 01:06:52

Ask directly.

Kevin Wong: 01:06:53

Are you thinking about killing yourself?

Kevin Wong: 01:06:55

It is definitely challenging, especially around the times, around these times where mental health discussions have been stigmatized or it's tough to talk about suicide or mental health sometimes, especially if it's so personal.

Kevin Wong: 01:07:06

But talking about suicide is proven to reduce risk.

Kevin Wong: 01:07:09

So ask.

Kevin Wong: 01:07:10

And then the third letter, R stands for respond.

Kevin Wong: 01:07:14

If that young person opens up to you about their suicidal ideation or their thoughts about suicide, honor that honor that trust by responding with compassion, empathy.

Kevin Wong: 01:07:26

Make sure that they know that you are there for them.

Kevin Wong: 01:07:30

And E stands for empower.

Kevin Wong: 01:07:32

So talking openly, great first step.

Kevin Wong: 01:07:35

But you can also empower them with the information and support they need to improve their situation.

Kevin Wong: 01:07:40

So that can look like talking to them about resources on the Trevor Projects website that can look like calling, chatting or texting a counselor.

Kevin Wong: 01:07:49

That can also look like going to a school counselor or finding clinical support in maybe a local therapist, et cetera.

Kevin Wong: 01:07:57

Some things will be unique decisions to someone's unique situation, but the general framework of care really helps find what's best for that young person.

Host: 01:08:12

September is National Suicide Prevention Month and I know we've talked a lot about numbers and statistics and facts and real life stories.

Host: 01:08:26

According to the Trevor Project, 41% of LGBTQ young people considered suicide just in the past year.

Host: 01:08:36

t number has gone up from the: 2022

Host: 01:08:42

We know we understand why the numbers are the way that they are.

Host: 01:08:48

And I think that this is a really vitally important distinction to make and to make sure that everybody really understands that LGBTQ youth are not prone to suicide risk because of their sexual orientation or their gender identity.

Host: 01:09:06

They are prone to greater suicide risk, greater suicide ideation, greater self harm, greater mental health struggles because of the ways that they are misunderstood, mistreated, and the negative messaging that they receive and have received perhaps their entire lives.

Host: 01:09:32

So this is a topic that is very near and dear to me.

Host: 01:09:37

I, I think it is something that is so important that we talk about, that we learn about, that we learn how to talk about with our kids.

Host: 01:09:47

And that is exactly what today's guest is going to help us do.

Host: 01:09:52

I am absolutely so delighted to have Ann Moss Rogers on the show today.

Host: 01:10:00

She is a mental health and suicide education expert, expert, a professional speaker, trainer and consultant.

Host: 01:10:08

on Charles died by suicide in: 2015

Host: 01:10:23

She is the author of an award winning memoir called Diary of a Broken Mind and the bestseller Emotionally Naked A Teacher's Guide to Preventing Suicide and Recognizing Students at Risk.

Host: 01:10:37

With her co writer, Dr.

Host: 01:10:38

Kimberly O'Brien, she has been a TEDx speaker, was featured in the New York Times Variety Magazine, and was the first non clinician invited to speak on Youth Suicide at the National Institute of Mental Health.

Host: 01:10:54

So I am grateful that you've taken time out of your schedule and and are here to share with us today.

Host: 01:11:02

Thank you so much.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:11:03

Thank you for having the guts to have not only one, but several podcasts on suicide prevention, particularly for this group, which is so vital to saving lives.

Host: 01:11:19

Oh, my goodness, yes.

Host: 01:11:20

The more and more that we learn, the more and more we realize that is the case.

Host: 01:11:26

And unfortunately right now, particularly the case.

Host: 01:11:29

So this work is so very important and this conversation is very important.

Host: 01:11:35

I'd like to start maybe not so much at the beginning, but just a little background on who you are and why you are doing what you are doing in the world.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:11:49

So I started out my professional career in advertising and marketing.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:11:56

digital marketing starting in: 1995

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:12:11

That early.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:12:12

And then I owned a digital marketing firm.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:12:18

And my son was struggling as I was owning this firm, and I was trying to juggle my professional life with what was going on in my family.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:12:32

So around his sophomore year, he gets chosen to be on homecoming court because he's the funniest, most popular kid in school.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:12:42

This is pretty rare for a sophomore.

Host: 01:12:45

Yeah.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:12:46

My family thought, wow, they really got it made.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:12:51

And what they didn't know is how much we were struggling with my younger son's mental health and how much we were struggling with his substance misuse, which had really started to escalate and really escalated after that proud mama moment, as I like to say.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:13:12

And I didn't know why he was doing drugs and alcohol.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:13:17

And later, from reading his rap music, I would find out it was because he was numbing thoughts of suicide.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:13:27

And to him, he thought, isn't it a lot better that I'm doing drugs and alcohol instead of killing myself?

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:13:34

He's a teenager.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:13:36

He's not looking ahead to see the problems that could lead to.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:13:41

He's just thinking in the moment.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:13:43

And what happens when they do that is they are robbed of the ability to develop healthy coping strategies.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:13:50

Ends up being we're going to see a counselor, because I don't know what to do and I don't know what's what.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:13:57

I don't know what he's struggling with.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:13:59

And nobody offers to do a psychological evaluation.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:14:04

We're not getting a lot of help from the school.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:14:08

I had some advocates, but not as many as I really needed.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:14:13

And I'm sure members of your audience will certainly understand that.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:14:19

He ends up the counselor, ends up recommended that we kidnap our son out of his bed and have him sent to wilderness program.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:14:28

And then from there, we did get a psychological evaluation.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:14:33

And so that was the Good part.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:14:35

And he was diagnosed with major depression for the first time, which I found shocking.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:14:42

Funniest, most popular kid in school.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:14:44

He seemed to relish and love life and a constant revolving door of friends.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:14:50

And it was really hard to understand, but I accepted it.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:14:56

And then he was diagnosed with adhd, combined type anxiety and cannabis dependence because he had started using marijuana to be able to sleep.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:15:09

And he said it was natural and blah, blah, blah.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:15:13

But I want everyone to know that marijuana is not harmless.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:15:18

It triggers psychosis and schizophrenia.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:15:22

And it definitely.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:15:24

It wasn't trolls with destination drug.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:15:27

He would end up becoming addicted to heroin eventually, but he didn't end up becoming addicted to it until he went to therapeutic boarding school.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:15:37

t wasn't until he returned in: 2014

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:15:47

And he would eventually confess.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:15:50

He would do all the things the detox, the rehab, and he would go to recovery house, and he would relapse within 24 hours.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:16:00

It was their protocol to take him back to detox.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:16:07

All he had to do was three days and he could come back to the recovery house.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:16:12

But he saw a friend there and they walked out together.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:16:15

And for two weeks, I don't know where he is.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:16:18

Is he under a bridge?

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:16:20

Is he staying with friends?

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:16:24

And we get the occasional text, but not much other communication than that.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:16:31

Here's the thing.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:16:33

I also didn't call him a lie.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:16:40

And I still kind of wonder why I didn't.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:16:42

And I think it was fear or I need to do this tough love parenting thing, which is a bunch of bs.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:16:52

I'm going to tell you that right now.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:16:53

I wish I'd called him every day and said, as much as I want you to get, I love you even if you don't.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:16:59

But I didn't do that.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:17:00

I did tell him I loved him.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:17:02

And I did text him.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:17:04

And I got a last phone call that I didn't know was my last phone call.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:17:07

,: 2015

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:17:16

They had called us to say, we want to meet with you.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:17:22

And they delivered the worst news of our lives and told us our son had been found dead.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:17:28

And I remember thinking, it's got to be overdose, right?

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:17:32

He'd been addicted to heroin.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:17:35

And when my husband said, how did he die?

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:17:38

And the policeman said it was a suicide, I couldn't even breathe.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:17:43

My husband is having this explosion in the front seat, and I'm just.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:17:49

I've forgotten how to breathe.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:17:52

And it was like this extra twist of a knife and it was like, doesn't he know we love him?

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:18:00

I just didn't understand why suicide.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:18:02

And it would just be a really long time before I would.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:18:07

I was.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:18:08

That intent piece makes the grief process so much harder.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:18:16

And you feel like, how did I miss pain and hurt so monumental.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:18:22

And I really, I beat myself up for years over that.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:18:29

But then I sold my digital marketing business and I started doing this full time because I wasn't finding the reward in the other things I was doing and I was finding healing by putting my grief into action.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:18:46

So that's why I do what I do today.

Host: 01:18:53

I just need to take a moment and I want everybody to take a moment because that and I want to honor.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:19:07

He'S my baby.

Host: 01:19:11

The worst imaginable thing.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:19:15

And I thought I took all those steps.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:19:18

I thought this is going to insulate me.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:19:22

And not only did it blow up in my face, it blew up in the absolute ugliest way possible.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:19:32

I couldn't even imagine a scenario so awful and a journey to healing so absolutely and utterly painful as that was.

Host: 01:19:44

I just, I cannot even begin to imagine and I am just so deeply sorry.

Host: 01:19:55

I know that there are so many of us who in, in different ways can empathize with different pieces of your story, for sure.

Host: 01:20:05

And every parent, right?

Host: 01:20:09

Every single parent.

Host: 01:20:11

It is the worst imaginable thing.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:20:15

But I'm here today because I know that Youth who are LGBTQ + are at higher risk.

Host: 01:20:25

Yes.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:20:27

I do not want anyone to go through what I've been through.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:20:32

But we need to put in place and we need to be more.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:20:37

We need to be more aware with this group because that connection and belonging and lack of acceptance.

Host: 01:20:47

So going back, what are the steps that you would say?

Host: 01:20:53

This is what to look for.

Host: 01:20:54

This is what you need to do.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:20:58

So I think we look for kids who are isolating more.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:21:02

Especially it's natural for them to pull away from you, their parent at this age and to align more with their peers.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:21:11

But when they're pulling away from you and their peers and they're isolating alone in a room, that's a red flag.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:21:21

Self deprecating remarks.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:21:22

Nobody likes me.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:21:24

Everyone hates me.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:21:25

I'm so stupid.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:21:28

We need to start to ask more questions.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:21:31

Say, what makes you say that?

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:21:33

I'd love to know.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:21:35

And remember when you ask questions, to ask with curiosity, not shame, not I'm going to teach you a lesson or I'm going to set you straight.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:21:46

You're listening and you want that person to feel heard, which means not offering solutions, but just asking more questions.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:21:58

So what we're going to look for is we're going to look for kids who are absent a lot.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:22:05

Maybe they're going to the school nurse a lot.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:22:08

That's.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:22:08

Trolls did that.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:22:10

So they have backaches, headaches, they catch more stuff, they go to the doctor more, they go to the ER more.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:22:17

Those kids are often at risk.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:22:19

So if you know your school nurse by first name, it can be likely that your child might be at higher risk of suicide.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:22:29

But it's not the only thing.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:22:31

It's a combination of a bunch of risk factors that kind of come together all at once.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:22:38

Are they falling asleep a lot in class?

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:22:40

That means they might be having trouble falling asleep at night, behaving recklessly and taking chances.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:22:48

You've talked about drugs and alcohol, and they're popping every pill they can find because they don't care if they're going to die.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:22:56

I think we really need to look out for those things.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:23:00

And what they say, I'm so worthless.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:23:04

I'm such a burden.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:23:05

I can't do this anymore.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:23:06

Now a lot of people think suicide is selfish.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:23:10

It's not.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:23:11

It is really about feeling despair and feeling like you're so worthless, if you were gone, no one would care.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:23:20

But I want everyone here to know that continuum, or the time they're in a suicidal episode, is a limited amount of time, and 20 minutes is about average.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:23:34

And it goes, like, up and down.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:23:37

And at no time is anyone 100% committed to the idea of dying by suicide.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:23:46

So they're always ambivalent on some level.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:23:49

And the really intense feelings of, I want to die, and I want to die now to stop this pain.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:23:57

Those last 60 to 90 seconds within that 20 minute or so continuum, and it can be shorter and it can be longer, but that's just an example.

Host: 01:24:08

Okay?

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:24:10

And so I want people to know they come out of it.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:24:14

And if you've been hearing your child say any of this, it's time to say, I was listening to this podcast episode today, and the woman was talking about her son who died.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:24:29

And if a child says these phrases, then we need to ask the question, are you thinking it's suicide?

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:24:37

Because if you want to know if someone is thinking suicide, you have to ask directly.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:24:44

What you will typically see on someone's face is relief because they've been wanting to tell you.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:24:54

And that's what people don't understand, is that kids who struggle with thoughts of suicide won't desperately to tell you first thing do not panic.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:25:05

Whatever you have to do, whatever you have to pull from.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:25:09

You've been these parents, you guys, you've been through a lot.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:25:13

You know better than to panic.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:25:15

Take that deep breath and just start asking questions.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:25:22

How long have you felt this way?

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:25:24

Tell me more about how you feel.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:25:26

But if we could come up with a code phrase my toenails are blue.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:25:31

Whatever you want.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:25:32

Give them that agency to come up with the funny phrase.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:25:37

You're not going to want me to ask that every day but we need to agree that that's what this phrase means and it's just a way of us to communicate and for you to bring down my anxiety about this which I'm asking your help.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:25:55

So when you do that you're saying you're important to me.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:25:59

I need your help for my anxiety and just your presence and your thoughtfulness or your random hugs will help make that happen.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:26:14

So you making them a part of that process, you cannot fix this for them.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:26:22

You can be there to support them, you can be there to love them but it's okay not to have all the answers.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:26:32

It's okay to say I don't even know what to do yet.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:26:37

Let's text: 741741

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:26:43

Let's do that together or call the Trevor hotline together and let's see what they suggest for next steps.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:26:54

As parents we often want to come out is knowing it all and I think we need to reveal our vulnerability that we don't but we're willing to learn along with them.

Host: 01:27:07

Absolutely.

Host: 01:27:09

And I think that when they realize that helps them realize our humanity.

Host: 01:27:15

Right.

Host: 01:27:15

We're not on that pedestal of the parent.

Host: 01:27:18

Right.

Host: 01:27:18

All of a sudden that brings us down to oh they're human too and oh they're feeling this.

Host: 01:27:25

Right.

Host: 01:27:25

Like their feelings are similar to my feelings and and I can communicate with them which I is I think such is a it is a game changer in as far as relationship with your child specifically your teenager.

Host: 01:27:44

Do love that you brought up the Trevor project and any of these hotlines which will all be in the show notes for you all.

Host: 01:27:52

I'm curious your thoughts on this.

Host: 01:27:54

A while back I spoke with with someone who also works in this similar field who suggested that when we have these conversations with our child and we really talk about whether it's suicidal ideation or when they are in that moment.

Host: 01:28:15

Right.

Host: 01:28:15

And thank you for breaking that down so clearly that if you ask the question why would you want to stay here why do you want to stay here?

Host: 01:28:29

And have them start naming reasons that they want to stay here.

Host: 01:28:36

That does something in the brain.

Host: 01:28:39

And I'm curious your thoughts on that.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:28:42

At the point where they're in ideation, they're so fixated with their tunnel vision.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:28:50

You can ask that.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:28:52

It's okay to ask that.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:28:54

But understand that they may not be able to formulate an answer.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:28:59

Most likely it's going to be worthless.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:29:02

There are no reasons to stay here because emotionally they don't have the capacity to wrap their heads around that.

Host: 01:29:11

Sure.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:29:12

However, most of the time, we are not in suicidal ideation.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:29:17

And I do something with teenagers and college kids on an index card.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:29:25

What are your reasons for living?

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:29:28

And they write it down in their own handwriting.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:29:32

And this has.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:29:33

It's called the crisis response plan.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:29:36

And it's Dr.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:29:37

Craig Bryant.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:29:38

He gets credit for this.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:29:40

And the numbers and success rates are incredible.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:29:42

And I think everyone should have this index card.

Host: 01:29:46

Right.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:29:47

What is so crucial about it is what are the things that make life worth living and what along with things like family, my dog, my YouTube channel, and my fans.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:30:01

It might be my football, might be my dog.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:30:04

But you also want them to also think of a past memory to also enjoy.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:30:10

Just a couple of clues on that card to trigger that memory to mine.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:30:16

I've got on my card Vienna, because I had dinner one night in a castle in Vienna, and I was invited to this dinner, and it was through my husband's business.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:30:29

We had no idea what.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:30:30

And it was so lavish.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:30:33

It was so fabulous.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:30:36

We were sitting in this table, and I've never laughed so hard my whole night.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:30:42

And everybody kept coming up to our table, including the royalty, because we were laughing so hard.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:30:49

And we clearly just had the magic that night.

Host: 01:30:52

Oh, my gosh.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:30:54

And so that's all I have to remember.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:30:57

And then I'm back in a happy place.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:31:00

So writing down little things that trigger a memory, if you ask them to take out that card when they are suicidal, it reminds them of those things they wrote down themselves.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:31:16

And that is a more effective strategy because for them to come up with those reasons in ideation is pretty rare.

Host: 01:31:27

That makes sense.

Host: 01:31:28

Just because you're in that crisis.

Host: 01:31:30

Fight or flight.

Host: 01:31:31

Yep.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:31:32

So I want to finish the rest of what goes on that card.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:31:36

So you've got your reasons for living, and then you have people that you reach out to, and those are your trusted adults you want to write down the crisis lines you'd reach out to with this group.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:31:51

It would be some of those Trevor Project lifelines.

Host: 01:31:55

Right.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:31:56

So you want them to think ahead of time.

Ann Moss Rogers: 01:31:59

What is my plan?

Host: 01:32:01

So I highly recommend that.

Host: 01:32:04

I think that is an incredible tool and suggestion.

Host: 01:32:08

Please share this episode with someone that you love, someone you know who could benefit from listening to it.