Finding Joy in Gender Exploration with Rae McDaniel

Heather Hester: 00:00:12

Welcome to Just Breathe Parenting youg LGBTQ Team, the podcast transforming the conversation around loving and raising an LGBTQ child.

Heather Hester: 00:00:24

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Heather Hester: 00:00:29

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Heather Hester: 00:00:39

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Heather Hester: 00:00:56

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Host: 00:01:13

Welcome back to Just Breathe, everyone.

Host: 00:01:16

I am thrilled that you are here today, and I am absolutely so excited for the interview that you are about to Listen to.

Host: 00:01:26

Ray McDaniel was on a few years ago, and you all may remember because it is a favorite episode of all of yours.

Host: 00:01:37

And I am just thrilled to have.

Heather Hester: 00:01:39

This conversation with them.

Host: 00:01:40

And there's so much that just has been happening that we're going to discuss and that they will update you on.

Host: 00:01:48

So without further ado, Ray, I'm so thrilled you're here, and I would love to just start off by talking about.

Host: 00:01:59

About gender freedom.

Ray McDaniel: 00:02:02

Yes.

Ray McDaniel: 00:02:02

So I am thrilled to be back.

Ray McDaniel: 00:02:05

We had such a great conversation a couple years ago, so I'm.

Ray McDaniel: 00:02:09

I'm just excited to dive in.

Ray McDaniel: 00:02:12

What do you want to know about gender freedom?

Ray McDaniel: 00:02:14

Let's.

Ray McDaniel: 00:02:14

Let's dig in.

Host: 00:02:15

It is a big topic.

Ray McDaniel: 00:02:18

Yes.

Host: 00:02:19

And one that we will circle back to many times during this conversation.

Host: 00:02:22

But you have written this new book, and it is.

Host: 00:02:26

Your work is all around.

Host: 00:02:29

And I think this is a broad term.

Host: 00:02:31

Right.

Host: 00:02:31

We're using gender freedom as a very broad term, but really encompasses your work, which is a little more specific.

Host: 00:02:39

You work with non binary and transgender individuals.

Host: 00:02:43

And so I'm guessing, and I would love to know, this is how you're kind of framing this, right.

Host: 00:02:51

As gender freedom as people are exploring.

Host: 00:02:55

Right.

Ray McDaniel: 00:02:55

That is, you are right on track.

Ray McDaniel: 00:02:58

So my book, Gender Magic, is based on a model that I created called the Gender Freedom Model that is talking about how do we help people explore and transition if that's what they want to do their gender with more play, pleasure and possibility.

Ray McDaniel: 00:03:17

And you're right that this is a topic and an idea that goes far beyond just folks who are trans or non binary.

Ray McDaniel: 00:03:27

You know, we all get put into this tiny little box of gender when we are born, and we have all of these expectations that go along with it.

Ray McDaniel: 00:03:36

And so many people never really take the time to question, hey, is how I am expressing my gender?

Ray McDaniel: 00:03:45

Does it really feel authentic to me?

Ray McDaniel: 00:03:48

Are there ways that I am holding myself back or limiting myself where I could be experiencing more freedom and more pleasure in my life?

Ray McDaniel: 00:03:58

So I love framing the conversation about gender transition within this larger idea of gender freedom.

Ray McDaniel: 00:04:07

It's something for all of us, regardless of how we identify our gender.

Host: 00:04:12

I'd love that because it does give permission.

Ray McDaniel: 00:04:17

Exactly.

Host: 00:04:18

And I think it's one of those things too, where, you know, to your point, for as long as we can all remember, it has been such a binary and a check the box and you don't even really think about it.

Host: 00:04:32

You don't really think about how much you align with the box that is checked and so or to think about gender in a very non linear way and that throughout your life you are going to identify in very different ways.

Ray McDaniel: 00:04:54

Yeah, exactly.

Ray McDaniel: 00:04:56

You know, we think of.

Ray McDaniel: 00:04:58

Well, let me back up.

Ray McDaniel: 00:05:00

If we think about teenagers, they try on a lot of identities, right?

Ray McDaniel: 00:05:07

Some of them stick, some of them don't.

Ray McDaniel: 00:05:09

That is a very, very normal part of identity exploration for everybody.

Ray McDaniel: 00:05:15

And we don't put so, so much pressure on teenagers exploring pretty much any other facet of their identity to decide with a capital D.

Ray McDaniel: 00:05:27

We give teenagers and young adults a lot of freedom to explore themselves in many, many different ways.

Ray McDaniel: 00:05:35

But somehow when it comes to gender, we get very panicky very quickly about, oh goodness, this person is exploring gender.

Ray McDaniel: 00:05:45

Oh, gender.

Ray McDaniel: 00:05:47

And I like to invite people into the idea that we might name our gender in different ways over our lifetime.

Ray McDaniel: 00:05:56

We might, you know, experience it in different ways and we might express it in different ways over our lifetime.

Ray McDaniel: 00:06:04

And that is also a very normal part of self growth.

Ray McDaniel: 00:06:08

You know, just like any other part of identity, some people might understand those things about themselves very early in life and other people, you know, it might shift and change over their lifetime.

Ray McDaniel: 00:06:21

I know that was my experience of it.

Host: 00:06:25

Right.

Host: 00:06:25

Well, and I think too, I mean, a lot of that, there's so many factors that go into that.

Host: 00:06:29

Right.

Host: 00:06:30

You know, the way you were raised, where, where you were raised, all these different, different types of things.

Host: 00:06:36

And I love that you use the word panicky because that's what we were talking about earlier, before we started recording, which is, I mean, again, like spot on, but it is that feeling.

Host: 00:06:47

And, and I had shared kind of specifically with my third child who was actually on.

Host: 00:06:54

I did a gender fluid panel at the beginning of this year and they were on.

Host: 00:06:58

And a Couple other people, and, you know, they're able to be very articulate about this, which I find so beautiful and wonderful.

Host: 00:07:09

And then, you know, as other parents discuss what, you know, what their child is experiencing, and even as my husband and I are experiencing this with them, it is.

Host: 00:07:20

It's panic.

Host: 00:07:21

I mean, that's the total thing.

Host: 00:07:23

And I'm doing this every single day, and I still have these moments of, did I get their pronoun right?

Host: 00:07:31

Did they are.

Host: 00:07:32

Is it they?

Host: 00:07:32

Because they use all three.

Host: 00:07:34

So there I'm.

Host: 00:07:35

I have to check in.

Host: 00:07:36

And so I guess, you know, kind of what I'd love to know from you is, for all of the people out here who are panicking, what are your words of wisdom for, you know, how not to panic, how to approach the.

Host: 00:07:50

If, you know, if their child is using, you know, he they or she they or he she they, how to approach that in a way that is, I want to learn, I want to understand, I want to support you, and I'm just a little bit slow, so please forgive me.

Ray McDaniel: 00:08:09

I love that you brought this up.

Ray McDaniel: 00:08:12

And to be a little tongue in cheek, just breathe is literally the first thing I would say.

Ray McDaniel: 00:08:19

You know, whenever we have a panicky moment, like, take a breath, it's going to be okay.

Ray McDaniel: 00:08:27

What I'm hearing is that we're talking about two different types of panic.

Ray McDaniel: 00:08:32

So there's panic number one, which is, oh, no, my child is exploring gender, and gender is a big deal, which we can take a breath.

Ray McDaniel: 00:08:43

And if we come to the conversation with a lens of gender freedom, gender is just one part of our identity that we will explore and learn more about over our lifetime, just like any other part of our identity.

Ray McDaniel: 00:08:58

So it's really not that big of a deal for anyone to start exploring that for themselves, no matter what the outcome of that exploration.

Ray McDaniel: 00:09:08

Panic number two, which I love that you brought this up, is a panic over, oh, no, I'm going to screw up, right?

Ray McDaniel: 00:09:16

I care.

Ray McDaniel: 00:09:17

I'm an ally, I'm an advocate, and I'm not always going to get it right.

Ray McDaniel: 00:09:22

And I may use the wrong language or accidentally use the wrong pronouns.

Ray McDaniel: 00:09:28

So the thing I would say to that is to slow down.

Ray McDaniel: 00:09:32

First of all, a lot of that panic, and I'll use myself as an example.

Ray McDaniel: 00:09:38

I have such severe name panic when making introductions, and this isn't even about, like, a transgender identity.

Ray McDaniel: 00:09:48

I will have somebody that I have known for, like, 10 years.

Ray McDaniel: 00:09:53

I know their name deep in my soul.

Ray McDaniel: 00:09:56

I know it.

Ray McDaniel: 00:09:57

But you asked me to introduce them to somebody Else at a party.

Ray McDaniel: 00:10:01

And suddenly my brain is like, oh, no.

Ray McDaniel: 00:10:03

I don't know names, what are words?

Ray McDaniel: 00:10:05

And I just can't do it.

Ray McDaniel: 00:10:06

I can't do it.

Ray McDaniel: 00:10:08

I'm so bad at it.

Ray McDaniel: 00:10:09

And it's because I want to get it right.

Ray McDaniel: 00:10:12

And my brain is like, oh, no, don't screw it up.

Ray McDaniel: 00:10:15

I think that people get in the same place when it comes to using pronouns.

Ray McDaniel: 00:10:20

So when you slow down, you're able to just kind of cut that panic response a bit and just be a little bit more mindful.

Ray McDaniel: 00:10:30

It's okay if it feels a little abnormally slow to you.

Ray McDaniel: 00:10:35

That is you getting your brain into the practice of using new pronouns for somebody, of being thoughtful, about using multiple pronouns that feel the most congruent for somebody that day.

Ray McDaniel: 00:10:50

So a lot of it is about, number one, giving yourself permission and accepting that you will make mistakes.

Ray McDaniel: 00:10:57

And it doesn't make you a bad person correcting it.

Ray McDaniel: 00:11:01

If you do right, do your own learning, correct it in the moment, apologize if you need to, and just slow down in the future, which is a very, very basic thing, but it's very powerful, right?

Host: 00:11:15

Oh, my goodness.

Host: 00:11:17

See?

Host: 00:11:17

Actionable.

Host: 00:11:18

Thank you.

Host: 00:11:19

Actionable.

Host: 00:11:20

Actionable and not.

Host: 00:11:21

And not the big deal that we all make it to be.

Host: 00:11:29

I like that there is kind of a theme of permission going here.

Host: 00:11:32

So I'm going to keep going with that because I want to.

Host: 00:11:35

I want to circle that back a little bit to the whole discussion around the permission to explore gender A and that that exploration is something that is not specific to an age or time in life.

Host: 00:11:54

That that is something that really is lifelong.

Host: 00:12:00

So as you work with people and as you kind of guide introduce this.

Host: 00:12:07

How do you introduce this so in a way that people are like, oh, yeah, I need to learn more about this.

Host: 00:12:15

I need to know this because this is such a hot topic and a lot of getting a lot of negative, icky stuff, which is really nice way to say it, but how do we, you know, how do you approach this as you're doing your teaching?

Ray McDaniel: 00:12:35

It kind of depends on the audience.

Ray McDaniel: 00:12:38

So if someone is starting out from nothing, I will usually talk about the huge diversity of biological sex and biology and how we have this entire assumption of a gender system that is a binary gender system built upon an assumption that there are two fundamentally different biological sexes.

Ray McDaniel: 00:13:03

And in Gender Magic, I have an entire chapter that is debunking this myth and inviting people in to consider the vast diversity that we already know about biology and that we are continuing to learn about biology and I like to use the metaphor of once upon a time there was this guy named Galileo who made a really, really wild claim that, you know, the entire universe did not resolve, revolve around the Earth, that in fact, we on Earth revolved around the sun.

Ray McDaniel: 00:13:40

He was excommunicated.

Ray McDaniel: 00:13:42

He was under house arrest for the rest of his life for saying something that the.

Ray McDaniel: 00:13:48

The science of the day and the kind of religious structure of the day, I will say the Catholic Church was saying, no, this is so out of line with how we understand the world that it has to be wrong because we cannot imagine this.

Host: 00:14:08

Right.

Ray McDaniel: 00:14:08

I think we are in the same place right now where we are learning so much more about biology, about gender, about what it means to exist as humans in the world.

Ray McDaniel: 00:14:21

And our science is catching up to it.

Ray McDaniel: 00:14:24

Our understanding of what it means to be humans in the world and our place in it is catching up to that.

Ray McDaniel: 00:14:32

So we're seeing a backlash right now because it shakes the foundations of what we think we know for sure.

Ray McDaniel: 00:14:40

So I like to start there.

Ray McDaniel: 00:14:41

That's my little soapbox.

Host: 00:14:43

I like that.

Ray McDaniel: 00:14:45

Yeah.

Ray McDaniel: 00:14:46

And then I move on to talking about gender transition and gender exploration as just simply a part of self growth.

Ray McDaniel: 00:14:56

It is transitioning into the most authentic version of us.

Ray McDaniel: 00:15:02

And I don't know about you, but I plan to never arrive at the most authentic version of me.

Ray McDaniel: 00:15:09

Right.

Ray McDaniel: 00:15:09

Because that means that you stop changing, you stop growing, and I never want that in my life.

Ray McDaniel: 00:15:16

So it's always something that we get to negotiate within ourselves, that we get to understand more of.

Ray McDaniel: 00:15:23

And it is certainly not a cause for panic.

Ray McDaniel: 00:15:27

It can be a really beautiful part of authenticity and understanding ourselves.

Host: 00:15:33

Right.

Host: 00:15:34

Well, and I think it's one of those things that we, many people do not realize is even available to them.

Host: 00:15:41

Right.

Host: 00:15:42

It's one of those, you know, you don't know what you don't know.

Host: 00:15:45

And once you start learning, once you start kind of peeling away these layers and realizing, oh, I mean, for many people it's that again, going back to the word permission.

Host: 00:15:56

But I'm allowed to do this.

Host: 00:15:58

I'm allowed to grow in this way.

Host: 00:16:01

I'm allowed to, like, consider these other thoughts and consider all these.

Host: 00:16:07

And so I think, you know, this is one more beautiful thing.

Host: 00:16:10

And I love the way that you framed that, because that is, I'm always trying to think of as we discuss this, not you have your discussions within your families, right?

Host: 00:16:22

You have with people who are peers, you have discussions with people who are younger, you have discussions with people are older.

Host: 00:16:31

And there's all different varying belief systems there.

Host: 00:16:35

Right.

Host: 00:16:35

And rates of understanding.

Host: 00:16:38

And so I love that this is a very.

Host: 00:16:43

The way that you have framed this is in a way that is so easy to understand because it relates to something that we already know to be true.

Host: 00:16:53

And it just makes total sense because with anything, with any big change, there's always a huge uproar.

Host: 00:17:01

People are resistant, people are freaking out.

Host: 00:17:05

And, you know, there's, of course, all these different layers to what's going on right now as well.

Host: 00:17:10

But that just is.

Host: 00:17:12

I don't know where my point was there.

Host: 00:17:13

I kind of lost it in the middle of just kind of being like, wow, this is so cool.

Host: 00:17:17

Because what I like is that especially people who are a little bit older, I think for our, you know, gen Zers, definitely the gen Alpha, like, they're just.

Host: 00:17:36

They've got this right.

Ray McDaniel: 00:17:37

They're.

Ray McDaniel: 00:17:37

They're on point.

Host: 00:17:39

They are like, there's no.

Host: 00:17:40

They're like, why are you talking about this so much?

Host: 00:17:42

Stop talking.

Host: 00:17:44

Whereas, you know, millennials are awesome.

Host: 00:17:47

Gen Xers are like, we're.

Host: 00:17:49

We're catching up and we're getting it.

Host: 00:17:52

We're just a little bit slower.

Host: 00:17:53

But I think that this is great information for.

Host: 00:17:57

Because it's like that.

Host: 00:18:00

Oh, my gosh, I'm allowed to think this way.

Host: 00:18:03

I'm allowed to consider this, and I'm allowed to continue growing.

Host: 00:18:07

Like, that wasn't just for my teen years or my.

Host: 00:18:10

When I was in college.

Host: 00:18:12

And then it's just, well, that's who I am.

Host: 00:18:14

Right.

Ray McDaniel: 00:18:14

Exactly.

Host: 00:18:15

How cool is that?

Ray McDaniel: 00:18:17

I love that permission idea.

Ray McDaniel: 00:18:21

And one of the things that is so magical to me about gender magic, if you will, and gender freedom is that it is about intention, not necessarily changing anything about yourself.

Ray McDaniel: 00:18:38

Not for everybody.

Ray McDaniel: 00:18:39

For some people, it might mean changing a lot about yourself, but for other people, it.

Ray McDaniel: 00:18:45

It just means being able to relate to your gender with more intention.

Ray McDaniel: 00:18:51

So one of the people who was helping me on the backside for editorial things with the book was talking to me as, you know, she was reading it, she was learning things as she went, and she was like, you know what?

Ray McDaniel: 00:19:04

I realized that I had never actually considered my gender.

Ray McDaniel: 00:19:08

So I took a moment and I went through the exercises in the book, and I realized that I am, in fact, a cisgender woman.

Ray McDaniel: 00:19:16

And I have no doubts about that.

Ray McDaniel: 00:19:19

And I love being in this kind of traditional way of expressing that.

Ray McDaniel: 00:19:24

I love heels and dresses, and that feels good.

Ray McDaniel: 00:19:29

And so it gave me permission to dive even deeper into affirming my own cisgender gender and to be able to relate to that part of myself with so much more intention and owning that this is who I am authentically.

Host: 00:19:47

Right.

Host: 00:19:48

And you don't ever think about that?

Host: 00:19:51

No, that's not something that we think about typically in a very conscious way.

Host: 00:19:57

So the fact that you've even given exercises in this book for us to go through is awesome because I think this is just a fun, interesting way to really not only relate to yourself, but people, to relate to other people and to have conversations around this in a way that just opens this up.

Host: 00:20:25

And I think anytime that you have these conversations and offer this education, that's what gets rid of the fear.

Ray McDaniel: 00:20:34

Right, Exactly.

Host: 00:20:37

So this kind of just leads into the thing that I'm really dying to talk to you about, which is when we talked a little bit about this earlier, but how to really.

Host: 00:20:45

There's a lot of discussion.

Host: 00:20:49

I think that's a nice way of saying.

Ray McDaniel: 00:20:51

That's a very mild way of saying.

Host: 00:20:53

That there is a lot of ugliness.

Host: 00:20:57

Let's just like just.

Host: 00:21:00

There's hate, there's misinformation, There is.

Host: 00:21:04

There are terrifying things that are going on legislatively to other human beings.

Host: 00:21:11

Just violence, flat out violence that's occurring.

Host: 00:21:14

And so in your work, this is a very, very important piece of work that people kind of, to this very last point, having knowledge is one of the biggest and easiest ways to dispel fear.

Ray McDaniel: 00:21:30

Exactly.

Host: 00:21:31

How do you approach all of this that's going on?

Host: 00:21:36

Do you approach all of this that's going on?

Host: 00:21:38

I know you do.

Host: 00:21:39

So how do you do it and do it in a way that is teaching and not allowing yourself to get kind of tangled in the ugliness of it all?

Ray McDaniel: 00:21:53

Such a good question.

Ray McDaniel: 00:21:54

And I think there's so much in there to unpack.

Ray McDaniel: 00:21:58

I mean, we know that: 2022

Ray McDaniel: 00:22:13

But now we're seeing what really we expected to happen all along, which is expansion of that to target trans adults and to be able to minimize or completely keep them from being able to access medically necessary medical services.

Ray McDaniel: 00:22:31

So it's very scary.

Ray McDaniel: 00:22:32

It's very, very scary.

Ray McDaniel: 00:22:34

We are seeing an uptick of hate in gender magic.

Ray McDaniel: 00:22:39

ed writing this book in early: 2021

Ray McDaniel: 00:22:47

So the landscape has changed a lot since I have started writing the book.

Ray McDaniel: 00:22:52

And I had to update the introduction at the very end of the process.

Ray McDaniel: 00:22:56

Because of everything that has been happening.

Ray McDaniel: 00:23:00

And a big tenant of the.

Ray McDaniel: 00:23:02

Of gender magic is, hey, I want to help people explore and transition their gender with less suffering and more ease and to bring more pleasure and joy and connection into that process.

Ray McDaniel: 00:23:18

And there was a part of me that looked at everything going on and said, what am I doing?

Ray McDaniel: 00:23:24

You know, how.

Ray McDaniel: 00:23:25

How can I sit here and say that gender transition can be easier and can be full of joy when we are sitting in this sort of political atmosphere?

Ray McDaniel: 00:23:37

But when I stepped back, it really hit me that the message of gender magic and bringing more joy and pleasure and connection into people's lives and more authenticity is more relevant than ever.

Ray McDaniel: 00:23:52

Because in the middle of everything that is going on that is hard and violent in many ways, trans folks and allies have to be able to connect to themselves, to each other.

Ray McDaniel: 00:24:10

We have to be able to have at least moments, if nothing else, where we are experiencing pleasure in our bodies, where we're experiencing joy.

Ray McDaniel: 00:24:22

Because otherwise, what are we fighting for if not to live full and loving and healthy and joyful and connected lives?

Ray McDaniel: 00:24:33

So I think that message connects us to our why in a huge way that I think is part of the fuel for how do we get through this really, really tough time?

Ray McDaniel: 00:24:47

How do we recharge ourselves and what do we do?

Ray McDaniel: 00:24:54

And maybe that's not a complete thought, but I'm going to stop.

Ray McDaniel: 00:24:58

Stop there for now.

Host: 00:25:00

No, I actually think it is a complete thought, very much so.

Host: 00:25:03

And perhaps not where either of us thought you would end up, but I think that it perhaps is the.

Host: 00:25:13

Is very wise, wise advice and just wise thinking as.

Host: 00:25:21

Because this isn't going to end anytime soon.

Host: 00:25:23

So I always think of, like, you know, we have.

Host: 00:25:26

There are options.

Host: 00:25:26

There's always options.

Host: 00:26:24

We always have choices, right?

Host: 00:26:25

So we could choose to get completely, you know, wrapped up and angry all the time and just like, you know, trying to fight anger with anger, right.

Host: 00:26:37

Which we all know is not effective at all.

Host: 00:26:41

This is a great reminder that taking that breath, right?

Host: 00:26:49

Being educated on the subject and presenting it in a way that is, I think kindness is always a little disarming to those who are so fueled by hate.

Host: 00:27:04

Right?

Host: 00:27:05

So putting this out there and just like this kind of consistent, like, well, here's.

Host: 00:27:11

This is just the truth, right?

Host: 00:27:13

And kind of paired with that is the connection piece, because that is so important, right?

Host: 00:27:19

Just connecting with all of the people.

Host: 00:27:24

Yeah, right.

Host: 00:27:26

All of those who are, you know, and there's many people who just can't.

Host: 00:27:31

So I feel like that's, you know, I Think that's kind of the job of allies right now.

Host: 00:27:36

Especially is there are a lot of people, if this is, they are frozen by, you know, just fear and they, they can't do anything.

Host: 00:27:47

So it is everyone else's job to step in and get, get moving in whatever way, shape or form they can.

Ray McDaniel: 00:27:55

Yeah, and I love that you said that because it's so true that this is a huge place where allies can step up.

Ray McDaniel: 00:28:03

You know, trans people are going to be involved, of course.

Ray McDaniel: 00:28:07

And we're tired.

Ray McDaniel: 00:28:09

We're really tired.

Ray McDaniel: 00:28:11

I get Google alerts that I have set up like every day and every week and it has been an onslaught of anti trans legislation, which is to speak to the question of how do we handle this?

Ray McDaniel: 00:28:28

Being able to step away from the media Sometimes it's very easy to get into a doom scroll spiral.

Ray McDaniel: 00:28:36

So getting the information you need because it's important to stay informed, but also shutting it down, like not doom scrolling all the time and creating space for, to recharge yourself too.

Ray McDaniel: 00:28:50

But this is definitely a moment where advocacy and loud advocacy really, really matters.

Ray McDaniel: 00:28:59

Now talking to your legislature folks, that was not a way to say that.

Ray McDaniel: 00:29:05

Talking to your lawmakers, legislator folks, I.

Host: 00:29:09

Don'T know those people, those people that.

Ray McDaniel: 00:29:11

Make the laws, those people.

Ray McDaniel: 00:29:14

Talk to them, let them know where you stand.

Ray McDaniel: 00:29:18

Have conversations with people who are on that, that fence of interested and curious, but maybe don't have all the information that they need.

Host: 00:29:30

Right.

Ray McDaniel: 00:29:31

You know, there is a place for anger in all of this.

Ray McDaniel: 00:29:34

Of course, there's a lot to be angry about.

Ray McDaniel: 00:29:37

And when you let that anger eat up your entire life, I don't think it's useful anymore.

Host: 00:29:44

Right, exactly, exactly.

Host: 00:29:47

And I think that's also a very, very good point is the people that are really the ones that are potentially going to, you know, kind of be tipping points are those who are curious are those who are, you know, maybe have never really thought about it up until now and now it.

Host: 00:30:08

Right.

Host: 00:30:09

It's not the people who are spewing the hate because that's, you're just going to be butting your head against a wall with that.

Host: 00:30:15

There's no point there.

Host: 00:30:16

And you're just going to be defeated and upset and, you know, and that's just kind of pointless.

Host: 00:30:21

But it is those, you know, people in your, in your life and around you.

Host: 00:30:24

And so it doesn't have to be, you know, going to your capitol or to, you know, marching in the city square.

Host: 00:30:31

Although if that's something you want to do, by all means do it.

Host: 00:30:34

But it is talking to those who.

Host: 00:30:37

Who are just like, I want to know more, tell me more.

Host: 00:30:40

Where can I learn more information?

Host: 00:30:43

And that's what's going to make a difference.

Ray McDaniel: 00:30:47

Exactly.

Host: 00:30:49

So, yeah, thank you for weighing in on that, because I think that I know for sure.

Host: 00:30:56

I have been careful in the way that I've begun to engage in a very public way about this.

Host: 00:31:04

And I know that I'm not the only one that has been thinking, how can I handle this in the very best way?

Host: 00:31:11

Right.

Host: 00:31:11

Like, how do I do this?

Host: 00:31:12

Well, so thank you for your thoughts on that.

Host: 00:31:17

I am so thrilled.

Host: 00:31:18

I'm so thrilled that you are.

Host: 00:31:22

I just loved.

Host: 00:31:22

And we've already talked about the book a lot, but I'm wondering if there are some pieces of this.

Host: 00:31:30

Of gender magic that you really use within your practice, because you do have a practice as well in Chicago.

Ray McDaniel: 00:31:38

I do.

Host: 00:31:39

That you work with non binary and transgender people kind of through their process and adults.

Host: 00:31:47

Right?

Ray McDaniel: 00:31:47

Yep.

Host: 00:31:48

You only work with young adults and older.

Host: 00:31:50

Correct.

Host: 00:31:50

Okay.

Host: 00:31:51

So, I mean, this is phenomenal.

Host: 00:31:53

So if anybody is in the Chicagoland area, this, of course, will be all linked and you have to check out Ray's work and what they do.

Host: 00:32:01

But I'm wondering if you could really kind of circle back to working with these wonderful humans.

Host: 00:32:09

How do they kind of come to you?

Host: 00:32:12

And then what is your process of really helping them connect with who they are meant to be in this world?

Host: 00:32:20

Right.

Ray McDaniel: 00:32:20

Ooh, good question.

Ray McDaniel: 00:32:22

And a big question as well.

Ray McDaniel: 00:32:25

So I've gotten people at a lot of different places in their journey.

Ray McDaniel: 00:32:30

I will say that I tend to get a lot of folks who are pretty early on in their.

Ray McDaniel: 00:32:36

Their journey.

Ray McDaniel: 00:32:37

They're asking questions like, am I trans?

Ray McDaniel: 00:32:41

Am I non binary?

Ray McDaniel: 00:32:43

Which, you know, once I kind of dig into that, typically what that question means is, am I trans enough?

Ray McDaniel: 00:32:50

Do I deserve to be able to.

Ray McDaniel: 00:32:55

To be my authentic self in the world?

Ray McDaniel: 00:32:58

Which is.

Ray McDaniel: 00:32:59

That is an interesting kind of process to walk people through.

Ray McDaniel: 00:33:04

I don't find.

Ray McDaniel: 00:33:06

I don't think it has ever happened to me that someone has come into my office and said, am I trans?

Ray McDaniel: 00:33:11

And the answer ended up being no, because most people who are asking that question have enough information to ask that question.

Ray McDaniel: 00:33:23

So typically don't.

Ray McDaniel: 00:33:24

People don't end up in my office unless the answer is eventually yes to that.

Ray McDaniel: 00:33:31

So when someone comes in and they are just starting to explore themselves, I make sure that I let them know that there is no agenda here.

Ray McDaniel: 00:33:40

I talk about the way that I think about gender exploration and transition, which Is all about that self growth, right?

Ray McDaniel: 00:33:49

That I have no attachment to where they end up, except that I want them to be the most authentic version of themselves that they can be.

Ray McDaniel: 00:33:58

And from there we will typically walk through, well, what do you know for sure?

Ray McDaniel: 00:34:04

So if your question is, am I trans?

Ray McDaniel: 00:34:07

That's too big.

Ray McDaniel: 00:34:08

That is not a helpful question at all.

Ray McDaniel: 00:34:11

It's way, way too complicated.

Ray McDaniel: 00:34:14

I like to get the questions down to do you, for example, if you have a close friend and they use this set of pronouns for you, does that feel good?

Ray McDaniel: 00:34:27

Does it feel not good?

Ray McDaniel: 00:34:29

Are you not sure?

Ray McDaniel: 00:34:31

In a similar way, do you feel lit up if you wear a certain type of clothing versus another type of clothing?

Ray McDaniel: 00:34:40

So I view it as if you can imagine at the eye doctor, you know, where they have the like, can you see better with this one or this one or this one or this one?

Ray McDaniel: 00:34:49

And you have to go back and forth about a million times and you're just like zoning in on the data that is important to you in these really small little ways.

Ray McDaniel: 00:35:02

That is the process.

Ray McDaniel: 00:35:03

Does this feel good or does this feel better?

Ray McDaniel: 00:35:06

Does this feel good or does this feel better?

Ray McDaniel: 00:35:09

And you slowly build on that information so that you are able to make decisions that you feel confident about regarding your own gender identity and your own body and how you want to express that to the world.

Ray McDaniel: 00:35:25

Another thing that I bring into my work quite a bit, and I should say that the gender freedom model and my process of working with people is not linear at all.

Ray McDaniel: 00:35:36

It's about core pillars that we will come back to a million times in different ways.

Ray McDaniel: 00:35:44

And those core pillars, like I mentioned earlier, are play, pleasure, and possibility.

Ray McDaniel: 00:35:49

So the this or that that I'm talking about the kind of eye doctor, does this feel good or does this feel better?

Ray McDaniel: 00:35:56

That's part of play, right?

Ray McDaniel: 00:35:58

We're just going to experiment.

Ray McDaniel: 00:35:59

We're just going to see what we learn.

Ray McDaniel: 00:36:01

There is no way to fail because we're just learning things about ourselves.

Ray McDaniel: 00:36:06

That's it, right?

Ray McDaniel: 00:36:07

Pleasure brings in this idea of we all deserve to feel pleasure in our body.

Ray McDaniel: 00:36:14

And then if we so desire to connect with other people's bodies, how do we connect with ourselves and those other bodies in ways that feel really good and really affirming for us?

Ray McDaniel: 00:36:29

Building on that is possibility, which brings in chosen family who are our support system, who has our back, and how do we develop more of that intimacy in our lives?

Ray McDaniel: 00:36:43

And then how do we take everything that we've learned about gender and ourselves and apply it to all these other aspects of Our lives.

Ray McDaniel: 00:36:52

How do you apply learning how to name and express boundaries, learning more about how you want to show up in the world, learning more about what feels good and what doesn't.

Ray McDaniel: 00:37:07

How do you take all of that and apply it to relationships and work and housing and what hobbies or things light you up in the world?

Ray McDaniel: 00:37:18

How do we focus on creating a full life beyond thinking about gender all the time?

Ray McDaniel: 00:37:24

Because that gets boring, frankly.

Host: 00:37:27

Yeah, well, it's just one piece.

Host: 00:37:29

It's one tiny piece, right, that is just happens to be under a spotlight and a microscope at the same time.

Ray McDaniel: 00:37:39

Exactly, exactly.

Host: 00:37:42

And that's interesting, you know, listening to like the number of just extraordinary possibilities.

Host: 00:37:47

I think just that bit alone, like, I would love every human being on this planet to hear that because it is so, like if they could actually hear it shows the vastness of the possibilities.

Host: 00:38:04

There's not just two, right?

Host: 00:38:07

There are.

Host: 00:38:08

And every single human being relates to that in a tiny different way.

Host: 00:38:14

Right.

Host: 00:38:14

Like there's just something that's just a little bit different each person.

Host: 00:38:20

And the, the way that you pose all of that in a way that's not threatening, that isn't scary, that isn't, oh, I need to like, pressure to make a decision.

Host: 00:38:37

Like there's no decision making.

Host: 00:38:40

It's all just like what, you know, what do you feel most connected to?

Host: 00:38:45

So it really allows the person to get into that space of being super connected because each question comes back to that.

Ray McDaniel: 00:38:54

Absolutely.

Ray McDaniel: 00:38:55

And people do make a lot of big decisions and sometimes decisions that affect their body permanently.

Ray McDaniel: 00:39:03

And when you approach it from this place of play and one tiny step at a time and just learning more about what it means to be authentically you, you're able to come to those decisions with a lot more confidence.

Ray McDaniel: 00:39:19

When you understand your own bodily autonomy and what you might want, there's not nearly as much self doubt or fear.

Ray McDaniel: 00:39:29

And that makes a huge difference in someone's experience of exploring themselves and their gender.

Host: 00:39:37

Absolutely.

Host: 00:39:38

I mean, once again, information that the entire world needs to know because I think there's such a misconception of, you know, you can walk into your local urgent care and be like, hey, feeling like I need some gender affirming surgery today.

Host: 00:39:58

Can you load me up on whatever you have?

Host: 00:40:01

I mean, I mean, there's like the amount of misinformation just in that statement is, I know.

Host: 00:40:06

BOTH laughing but it's not far off from what people out there think.

Host: 00:40:13

So this is really, really valuable education for, you know, all of us to really understand and take in and Think about this is how it works.

Host: 00:40:29

And how cool is that?

Host: 00:40:32

How lucky are all these people to have you?

Host: 00:40:35

Oh, my goodness.

Ray McDaniel: 00:40:36

Thank you.

Host: 00:40:37

And that you just.

Host: 00:40:38

This work that you're doing is so special.

Ray McDaniel: 00:40:42

It feels special.

Ray McDaniel: 00:40:44

It really, really does.

Host: 00:40:47

Wow.

Host: 00:40:49

I mean, you're a gift.

Host: 00:40:51

And you are a gift at exactly the right time in history.

Ray McDaniel: 00:40:55

You know, that's what I'm hoping for.

Ray McDaniel: 00:40:57

I think that gender magic has a lot of possibilities to really shift this narrative in ways that I think are really profound.

Ray McDaniel: 00:41:08

And I'm certainly not the first person to say a lot of this, but I'm the first person to say it in my voice.

Ray McDaniel: 00:41:14

And I'm hoping that that speaks to as many people as humanly possible and that we can begin to shift this really scary narrative that is happening in the world today.

Host: 00:41:29

Right.

Host: 00:41:29

Well, just as that.

Host: 00:41:31

As those narratives take fire and just roll.

Host: 00:41:35

Right.

Host: 00:41:36

Which.

Host: 00:41:36

That was a dumb way of saying that, but you all know what I mean.

Host: 00:41:42

This is what we want to do with this book.

Host: 00:41:44

And this book is being released today.

Host: 00:41:49

Can't be.

Host: 00:41:51

I know.

Host: 00:41:52

As Ray and I were recording, we realized this is the official release day the book is being released.

Host: 00:41:58

So I think that this is.

Host: 00:42:00

Just let that be part of what we all do as the Just Breathe community is get this book into as many hands of people as we possibly can.

Host: 00:42:10

And whether that's by sharing the link that's, you know, in the show notes or buying copies and handing it out to every person, you know, you know, whatever we have to do.

Host: 00:42:20

Because this is really.

Host: 00:42:21

And it's presented in a way that is not.

Host: 00:42:25

And I think this is the other really beautiful piece about what you do is it's presented in a way that is not in your face or, you know, where one who perhaps is either on the fence or believes differently would feel threatened.

Ray McDaniel: 00:42:40

Yeah.

Ray McDaniel: 00:42:41

It is not an angry book.

Ray McDaniel: 00:42:43

It is a book about joy and pleasure and connecting to yourself and other people.

Ray McDaniel: 00:42:50

And so I hope that that gets through to people.

Ray McDaniel: 00:42:52

And thank you.

Ray McDaniel: 00:42:53

Thank you so much for sharing this with your audience and for all the listeners out there who are going to support it.

Ray McDaniel: 00:43:01

Makes a big, big difference.

Host: 00:43:03

It does.

Host: 00:43:04

It does.

Host: 00:43:05

I mean, it's the whole pebble theory, right?

Host: 00:43:08

The ripple theory.

Host: 00:43:09

Once again, what is wrong with me today?

Host: 00:43:11

I've come up with the weirdest ways of saying things.

Ray McDaniel: 00:43:14

I'm right there with you.

Host: 00:43:16

The pebble that makes the ripple.

Host: 00:43:18

That's what this is.

Host: 00:43:19

So we're going to do that, and I'm a firm believer in that.

Host: 00:43:25

So is there Anything else that you would love to just share while we're chatting?

Host: 00:43:30

I feel like this is such precious time because you know, I won't get you back on here for like a year.

Host: 00:43:40

I'm excited.

Ray McDaniel: 00:43:41

I'm so excited.

Ray McDaniel: 00:43:43

So I think the thing I'd like to leave people with is that I truly believe that the world is better when as many of us as possible, all of us have the ability to walk around as our most authentic lit up selves.

Ray McDaniel: 00:44:00

And that's my mission.

Ray McDaniel: 00:44:02

And I'm doing it through the lens of gender freedom.

Ray McDaniel: 00:44:06

That's certainly not the only lens, but I invite you to join me in that mission to help create a world where people are free to be themselves, truly themselves, free from fear and free from shame, because that makes the world a better place.

Host: 00:44:26

I could not agree more.

Host: 00:44:30

I would love to.

Host: 00:44:32

If you have any advice or wisdom to share with either a young person who is kind of exploring their gender, whether it's, you know, just their gender in general, and, or the parent of a young person who is exploring their gender, what would you like to share with them?

Ray McDaniel: 00:44:52

Sure.

Ray McDaniel: 00:44:53

So I can speak to both.

Ray McDaniel: 00:44:55

If I were to talk to a parent, all you parents out there, I would say that the basics go a really long way, which is great news because that is low hanging fruit.

Ray McDaniel: 00:45:06

Working on getting someone's name, their pronouns and gendering them correctly, you're 80% of the way there, which is awesome news.

Ray McDaniel: 00:45:16

The other thing I would say is especially important right now is to be a loud supporter of loved ones who are exploring gender or transitioning gender or have transitioned, and to advocate for their needs.

Ray McDaniel: 00:45:31

We're in a world where that's really hard right now and in many areas of the country.

Ray McDaniel: 00:45:37

And we need loud advocates because we're, we're tired, we don't want to do it all ourselves.

Ray McDaniel: 00:45:45

So we, we really need you to be there and to stand up.

Ray McDaniel: 00:45:50

And for any young person that is listening who is exploring gender or coming out, I would say in the realm of coming out, think about the who, what, when, where and how.

Ray McDaniel: 00:46:05

And what I mean by that is develop a plan of how you need, and in particular you need to feel safe and supported in the process of sharing with others about your identity.

Ray McDaniel: 00:46:21

So maybe that means bringing somebody on board, a close friend or someone that you can reasonably expect will be supportive before you have conversations with people that might, that are a little bit more questionable of if they will be supportive or you kind of know that they're probably not going to be.

Ray McDaniel: 00:46:42

So it's Helpful to have that support system in your back pocket before you.

Ray McDaniel: 00:46:48

You put yourself out there in a way that might feel emotionally unsafe.

Ray McDaniel: 00:46:53

The other thing that I would say is, remember that discomfort isn't harm, you know, making someone else, or I should say someone else being uncomfortable simply because you shared who you are or you're expressing who you are to them.

Ray McDaniel: 00:47:12

That's not your problem.

Ray McDaniel: 00:47:14

No.

Ray McDaniel: 00:47:14

That is about them and their own discomfort and their own biases.

Ray McDaniel: 00:47:20

You are not a burden for being yourself.

Ray McDaniel: 00:47:23

That is absurd to think.

Ray McDaniel: 00:47:26

So I just invite you into that idea that being you in the world is not a burden.

Ray McDaniel: 00:47:33

And asking people to simply respect who you are in the world is a pretty small ask.

Host: 00:47:43

It really, really is.

Host: 00:47:45

Thank you for saying that because I said two things there that I just want to kind of highlight really quickly, which is.

Host: 00:47:53

It is.

Host: 00:47:54

It is not.

Host: 00:47:55

That is something I say a lot.

Host: 00:47:56

It is not about you.

Host: 00:47:57

It is about them.

Host: 00:47:59

Do not take that on.

Host: 00:48:00

That's not yours to take on.

Ray McDaniel: 00:48:02

Exactly Right.

Host: 00:48:03

Be you.

Host: 00:48:05

Oh, my goodness.

Host: 00:48:06

And circling back to the whole parent piece.

Host: 00:48:11

Thank you.

Host: 00:48:12

I think one of the biggest things that parents are looking for and allies and advocates are looking for is direction.

Host: 00:48:19

What can we do?

Host: 00:48:21

That's.

Host: 00:48:21

People are ready and they want to be helpful.

Host: 00:48:23

They just don't know what to do or how to do it.

Host: 00:48:27

So that is a directive, a great directive.

Host: 00:48:30

So thank you.

Host: 00:48:31

Thank you so much.

Ray McDaniel: 00:48:31

Of course.

Ray McDaniel: 00:48:32

And I think the very simple thing if you don't know what to do is to ask your loved one what they need.

Ray McDaniel: 00:48:40

I think we forget that step sometimes.

Host: 00:48:43

Right.

Host: 00:48:43

Well, I think a lot of times we feel like we just know.

Host: 00:48:48

Right.

Host: 00:48:48

If we're the parent or the friend or the, you know, we just know what that person needs.

Host: 00:48:54

And it's so important to ask because I've been surprised many times with the answer.

Host: 00:49:02

Not what I thought.

Host: 00:49:03

Okay.

Host: 00:49:04

Right.

Ray McDaniel: 00:49:04

Yep.

Host: 00:49:05

So it's good.

Host: 00:49:06

It is.

Host: 00:49:07

It is a good thing to do.

Host: 00:49:10

And it's okay if you haven't done it yet.

Host: 00:49:12

Don't beat yourself up.

Host: 00:49:13

Just start doing it.

Ray McDaniel: 00:49:16

Exactly.

Ray McDaniel: 00:49:17

Shame doesn't help.

Ray McDaniel: 00:49:18

Let's.

Host: 00:49:19

It does not help.

Host: 00:49:20

And, you know, we're all so good at doing that to ourselves.

Host: 00:49:24

It's not helpful.

Host: 00:49:25

We don't.

Host: 00:49:25

Don't waste energy on that.

Host: 00:49:27

So, anyway, thank you.

Ray McDaniel: 00:49:30

Thank you.

Host: 00:49:30

Thank you.

Host: 00:49:31

Thank you.

Host: 00:49:31

It has been so awesome to have you here and just having this conversation that I was looking forward to.

Ray McDaniel: 00:49:39

So thank you so much for having me.

Ray McDaniel: 00:49:42

As always, a delight talking to you.

Heather Hester: 00:49:46

Thanks so much for joining me today.

Heather Hester: 00:49:49

If you enjoyed today's episode, I would be so grateful.

Heather Hester: 00:49:54

For a rating or a review.

Heather Hester: 00:49:56

Click on the link in the show notes or go to my website, chrysalismama.com to stay up to date on my latest resources as well as to learn how you can work with me.

Heather Hester: 00:50:09

Please share this podcast with anyone who needs to know that they are not alone and remember to just breathe until next time.