Episode 114
Navigating the Spectrum of Gender: Insights from a Trans Parent
Join us as we warmly welcome back Trystan Reese, Author, Storyteller, Consultant, Coach, and Facilitator; back to the podcast, where we explore the rich and complex tapestry of transgender parenting. We engage in a heartfelt conversation that underscores the importance of creating a supportive environment for our children, one that champions their individuality and respects their evolving identities. This dialogue is a must-listen for parents, allies, and anyone invested in understanding the dynamics of gender non-conforming families.
Listen in as we dive into the delicate dance of parenting adolescents amidst the fluid landscape of gender identity. We touch on the critical role of unconditional love and the power it holds in allowing children to safely explore and express their gender. Our chat emphasizes that the path to understanding gender is not always linear. By embracing change and supporting our kids through their journey of self-discovery, we not only nurture their growth but also contribute to a more inclusive community.
Our conversation reveals how empathy and understanding in parenting can prepare children for the world, equip them to face social challenges, and cultivate a sense of self-assuredness. Moreover, we consider the power of unlearning preconceived notions and the expansion that comes from embracing new perspectives.
About our Guest:
Trystan Reese has been organizing with the trans community for nearly two decades, serving on the frontlines of this generation’s biggest fights for LGBTQ+ justice around the country. He then launched onto the global stage in 2017 when his family’s unique journey gained international media attention. He was honored to partner with many major media outlets, including CNN, NBC, People, and Buzzfeed, to bring his message of trans family love and resilience to the mainstream. Professionally, he is the founder of Collaborate Consulting, providing customized training solutions for individuals, organizations, and communities interested in social justice. His first book, How We Do Family, was released in the summer of 2021 and his children’s book, The Light Of You, was released at the beginning of 2022.
Trystan is married to his partner Biff, and they live in Portland, Oregon, with their three kids: Riley, Sully, and Leo. They are very happy.
Connect with Heather:
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Please subscribe to, rate, and review Just Breathe. And, as always, please share with anyone who needs to know they are not alone!
Email: hh@chrysalismama.com
Takeaways:
- The importance of unconditional love in parenting LGBTQ children is paramount for their development.
- Fluidity in gender identity among children allows them to explore who they truly are.
- Parents should embrace the changes their children undergo without rigidly imposing labels or identities.
- Understanding that a child's journey through gender expression can be nonlinear is crucial for acceptance.
- Modeling acceptance and freedom in gender expression creates a supportive environment for children.
- Navigating societal pressures and expectations can be challenging, but open conversations facilitate understanding.
Transcript
Welcome back my friends.
Heather:And welcome.
Heather:If this is your first time listening, I am so happy you are here.
Heather:So I am a huge fan of Glennon Doyle's podcast.
Heather:We can do hard things.
Heather:I'm sure so many of you listen to that as well.
Heather:And as you know, she does that podcast with her wife Abby and her sister Amanda.
Heather:And it's my go to for when I'm walking, you know, especially when I'm walking, when I'm out of town somewhere and I always come away with a new perspective or a way that I can be more gentle with myself.
Heather:So this past week it actually had a direct effect on this podcast.
Heather:They sent out a heads up email that Apple's recent updates had caused listeners downloads to pause.
Heather:So if you've been following whatever podcasts that you follow, you just weren't following them anymore.
Heather:So you weren't getting the automatic downloads, you weren't getting updates, you weren't getting notified when new episodes were being dropped.
Heather:And so I checked my Apple podcasts and it happened absolutely to me that every show I had been following had been unfollowed.
Heather:So it's super easy to pop in there and refollow your favorite shows.
Heather:It took me, you know, just a second to do.
Heather:I did send out an email this week to let you all know how to do it as well as some socials with an infographic with help.
Heather:But just shoot me an email if you need help or jump on my socials and you'll see an infographic that really helps.
Heather:Just go through, I think four steps to refollow all of your favorite shows.
Heather:We don't want to miss these things.
Heather:I was wondering why I was missing things and that is why.
Heather:So super happy that everyone over at We Can Do Hard Things did sent that out and just super grateful.
Heather:I also want to bring back sharing beautiful reviews that I receive with you all.
Heather:I had done that there for a while I think last year and then I stopped and I don't remember why I stopped, but I want to start doing it again and this time I'm going to level it up a little bit.
Heather:If the review I read is yours, I want you to DM me on Instagram at Chrysalismama is my handle there And DM me with your most burning question and I will answer it in a super detailed video that I will post to Instagram and I will post to YouTube and I will take as much time as it needs to answer that question.
Heather:So fingers crossed if you haven't already left a review for the show.
Heather:I would love your review for Just Breathe Parenting your LGBTQ teen.
Heather:That is super helpful and I always love to hear from people who are listening.
Heather:So today's review that I'm going to read is this.
Heather:And the.
Heather:The username is a lot of letters and numbers, so it did not make any sense to read it.
Heather:So if this sounds familiar to you, listen up.
Heather:This person says, this podcast is a great place to educate myself and it's a warm, safe space to be in the world.
Heather:At a time when the world feels unsafe and out of control.
Heather:Listening to Heather and her guests helps me feel connected to the strongest part of us all.
Heather:Love.
Heather:Thank you.
Heather:Thank you for that review, which is beautiful.
Heather:It is why I do this.
Heather:And I'm just so grateful for all of you listening and that this brings just even a moment of joy to your lives.
Heather:So I invite you to listen to today's episode with your heart.
Heather:If you can possibly just put your brain on hold for a minute and just open up your heart, do that.
Heather:Part of the work that I continue to do, my personal work, is to let go of that desire for boxes to check or labels to place, to embrace that life and all of its beauty and its messiness is on a continuum to be aware of reductionistic thinking and the idea that we have to prove who we are.
Heather:Today's guest is back for a second time, and this time is sharing life experience and wisdom that is no less thought provoking and wonder filled than our first interview.
Heather:You can read his full bio in the show notes, but to help jog your memory, our last interview was a discussion around his book, how we do family and his experience with pregnancy as a trans man.
Heather:Today he returns with a parenting story that I can only say is phenomenal.
Heather:It is wise, evolved, and so very connected.
Heather:He is a model for all of us to lean in, especially when it feels uncomfortable.
Heather:Welcome to Just Breathe Parenting your LGBTQ teen, the podcast transforming the conversation around loving and raising an LGBTQ child.
Heather:My name is Heather Hester, and I am so grateful you are here.
Heather:I want you to take a deep breath and know that for the time we are together, you are in the safety of the Just Breathe nest.
Heather:Whether today's show is an amazing guest or me sharing stories, resources, strategies, or lessons I've learned along our journey, I want you to feel like we're just hanging out at a coffee shop having a cozy chat.
Heather:Most of all, I want you to remember that wherever you are on this journey right now, in this moment in time, you Are not alone.
Heather:Tristan, thank you so much for coming back on the show.
Heather:I'm so excited to have you here.
Heather:It has been a couple of years, I think, since you were last on talking about your book, which I love and I still do recommend to people.
Heather:I actually just recommended it.
Heather:I didn't tell you this when we were talking a few minutes ago.
Heather:I just recommended it earlier this week.
Heather:I was in a meeting with somebody and they were asking questions, and I was like, I have the perfect book for you to understand this.
Heather:So love, you know, just.
Heather:I'm so, so thrilled.
Heather:And what you have come to talk about today and to discuss is a topic I think we'll.
Heather:Well, I know we'll make everybody kind of sit up and listen, but everyone, I want you to sit up and listen and really hear what Tristan has to say and listen to this discussion, because this is something really important for all of us, especially parents, allies, and anyone who is actually kind of walking through this right now.
Heather:So with that, Tristan, thank you so much.
Heather:I'm so glad you're here.
Tristan:Yeah.
Tristan:What a delight to be back and for once, to not be talking about transfertility, which I love.
Tristan:I'm obsessed with it.
Tristan:I think about it day and night, and hopefully this will be like, see, I have.
Tristan:I am not a one trick pony.
Heather:That's right.
Tristan:But, yeah, you know, we've been a little bit private about this.
Tristan:I mean, we've been private about everything.
Tristan:Some folks, if you've been following the podcast for a long time, then you heard me.
Tristan:You know, as Heather mentioned a couple of years ago, coming on, I'm a transgender man.
Tristan:I gave birth to a baby six years ago.
Tristan:He's in first grade now.
Tristan:And then a few years before that, my partner and I had adopted my partner's niece and nephew.
Tristan:And so parenting is a big part of our lives.
Tristan:And, you know, now I'm a transgender parent, so I'm, you know, sort of wearing, always wearing both hats, a member of the community and raising the next generation of human beings.
Tristan:And a few years ago, our middlest child is how I often refer to Sully sat us down and said, you know, I really feel like even though I have been treated as a girl and was assigned female at birth, like, I really do feel like a boy and I'd like to cut my hair and I'd like to go by a different name.
Tristan:And, you know, we went through that experience, and I have since left social media.
Tristan:I mentioned it a little bit online, but was very.
Tristan:I wanted to be really thoughtful about it.
Tristan:And, you know, for me, as a transgender person, there's a real trap when you're a transgender parent, which is people look at you and look at your kids and think, are you going to mess them up somehow?
Tristan:You know?
Tristan:And I feel like we spend a lot of time either consciously or unconsciously, trying to convince people, don't worry, our kids will be, quote, unquote, normal.
Tristan:Don't worry.
Tristan:Whatever is wrong with me, I'm not going to pass that on to my kids.
Tristan:And for me, this was, like, really crystallized in a gross way when our older kids were little and they saw their great grandma for the first time since they'd come to live with us, me and my partner, and she said to us, oh, thank God.
Tristan:I see that you've gendered them appropriately.
Tristan:And the little girl child was in a dress, and the little boy child was in jeans.
Tristan:And it was super clear that she was under the impression that we were going to, quote, unquote, mess them up.
Tristan:Do you know what I mean?
Heather:Right, right.
Tristan:Because that's there.
Tristan:Either, like, consciously or unconsciously, it's an additional burden that trans parents have to carry with us.
Tristan:So then it's like, if our kid does come out as trans or somehow gender non conforming, it's like, oh, no, we've somehow failed.
Heather:Right.
Tristan:You know, that can kind of be what the world teaches us, which is really gross.
Tristan:It somehow is, right?
Heather:Yeah, it's very gross.
Heather:And I wonder.
Heather:I do often think about this, and I, you know, and a number of couples that I know who are same sex couples who are raising children, and I think, okay.
Heather:And transgender.
Heather:I mean, I think you might be the.
Heather:I mean, I just love that I know you, but I don't know that I know any other.
Heather:Actually, I should say I take that back, because I do.
Heather:But anyway, it doesn't matter.
Heather:I wonder.
Heather:I've wondered that, like, how much is that part of your psyche every single day?
Heather:And what messages are you receiving from other people, both verbally and non verbally, and how do we counteract that?
Heather:What do we do about that?
Tristan:Right.
Tristan:What do we do about that?
Tristan:You know?
Tristan:And so it is something that I have thought a lot about.
Tristan:And so when Sully came to us and said, you know, I feel like I'm a boy, I want to cut my hair, I want to change my name, you know, I was ironically, really skeptical internally, you know, which, of course, it is.
Tristan:Again, very ironic because I am a transgender man myself, so how dare I be like, are you really, though?
Tristan:You Know, and Sully had exhibited zero signs of gender incongruity up until that moment.
Tristan:No real desire to dress like in a more masculine or androgynous way.
Tristan:The ways that we sort of code that in our society.
Tristan:No interest in sort of more traditionally like boy toys or clothes.
Tristan:But like, I wasn't that way either, you know, like I didn't know I was trans when I was a kid, you know, and so it was.
Tristan:I did have to check myself, you know, I really did.
Heather:Well, and I think do.
Heather:Did you also wonder, like, because it is part of your conversation, part of just what you are teaching.
Heather:You're teaching your children just to be so much more open and so much more aware and that this is something that they were probably like, well, this seems like it fits.
Heather:And.
Tristan:Yeah, right.
Tristan:That's the thing is I was like, well, I.
Tristan:But, but the reason I didn't know sooner in my life was because I didn't have the language.
Tristan:I didn't have any.
Tristan:I had nothing.
Heather:Right, right.
Tristan:But of course all that was internal and behind closed door conversations.
Tristan:And of course with our kid, we were just sort of like, sure, whatever you want.
Tristan:Like, you can cut your hair, you can wear whatever clothes you want, you can go with whatever name you want, whatever.
Tristan:We don't care, you know, knowing of course that if we said are you sure?
Tristan:Then that's not fair, you know, to put on our kid.
Tristan:But also really forcing the issue also wouldn't be fair either.
Tristan:You know, just like, this is amazing.
Tristan:Let's throw a coming out party.
Tristan:And you know, that's too much too for a, you know, for a tween, a pre tween.
Tristan:They don't want that either, you know, so we held really lightly to it and went through some stages of, you know, super short hair, really masculine clothes, coming out to friends and family, all the things and having to deal with, you know, I did have someone in my life, a close blood relative who said, you know, you did this to your kid, that your kid feels like there's no way that they could be loved if they weren't trans because that's who you are.
Tristan:And I have since cut that person out of my life completely.
Tristan:Yeah, that's a brutally short sighted, transphobic and judgmental thing to say that is not at all rooted in reality.
Heather:Right.
Tristan:So I had to go through a hard learning there.
Tristan:Not everyone, you know, you, you know, to.
Tristan:You have to be this cool to ride the ride, you know, you have to be the same to ride the ride in terms of Having a relationship with me and.
Tristan:And having access to a relationship with my kids.
Tristan:You have to be there.
Tristan:There.
Tristan:There is a litmus test, and that is it.
Tristan:Yeah.
Tristan:And so you.
Tristan:Yeah, go ahead.
Heather:No, no, no.
Heather:I was just going to say I think that's very reasonable.
Heather:A very reasonable litmus test.
Heather:I mean, that was beyond cruel as far as.
Heather:I mean, that's me being.
Heather:Sharing my opinion, but not acceptable.
Tristan:Yeah, no, I agree with you.
Tristan:It's not acceptable.
Tristan:And all three of our kids know that they have our unflinching, unconditional love for now and for always.
Tristan:Right.
Tristan:And that absolutely supersedes their gender or gender identity, gender expression, sexual orientation, anything, Anything political affiliation, religious, you know, beliefs.
Tristan:Like our love for them is, you know, stretches throughout all time and all place.
Tristan:And for someone to.
Tristan:Yeah, it was extremely hurtful, I'll say that.
Tristan:Yeah.
Tristan:But, you know, the reason that I was interested in coming on is to talk about that first piece around, like, what kinds of double standards do we put on trans people?
Tristan:You know?
Tristan:And then the second thing I wanted to talk about is that our middle child outgrew it, which is, like, so counterintuitive again, because we're constantly saying, it's not a phase, they won't outgrow it.
Tristan:But, like, what if they do?
Tristan:And how do we hold that as like.
Tristan:Absolutely.
Tristan:When relatives say, well, it's just a phase, they'll outgrow it instead of being like, no, they won't.
Tristan:You know, how can we be like, yeah, maybe, maybe.
Heather:Right.
Tristan:And how do we support them through that, too?
Tristan:And.
Tristan:Right.
Tristan:Sully.
Tristan:It was slow, you know, so it was like, okay, well, you know, I go by both pronouns or all pronouns, you know?
Tristan:And then, like, I noticed that, like, oh, you're growing your hair out and not asking for a haircut again.
Tristan:And then when we go shopping, you're like, back to the, like, girl section instead of the boy section.
Tristan:And you know what I mean?
Tristan:It was, like, a slow thing, and I really tried to not.
Tristan:Again, like, you don't want to impose at this point, we were like, at, like, 11, then 12, then they don't want to talk to you, you know.
Heather:Yeah, that continues.
Tristan:I know, I know it continues.
Tristan:But I started noticing, like, Sully would be telling other people, like, oh, I go by both pronouns, or I go by she and they.
Tristan:And then.
Tristan:And then.
Tristan:You'll appreciate this as a parent, Heather, of course, even though I'm consistently maybe once every three to six months.
Tristan:Oh, hey, by the way, like, what pronouns are you using like how, what's, what's like are, is they them still feeling good for you?
Tristan:Just like a little bit of a pulse check.
Heather:Right?
Heather:Exactly.
Tristan:Always treated as if that was the most like ridiculous, stupid, inappropriate thing for me to ever ask.
Tristan:Thank you so much, my lovely teenager.
Tristan:And then come to find out she doesn't identify as non binary anymore in the most obnoxious way possible.
Heather:Oh, stop.
Tristan:Yes.
Tristan:Well, my mom sends me a text.
Tristan:Hey, there's this trans non binary youth event in Canada.
Tristan:It's a week long free summer camp where they can go and there's like singing and dancing and karaoke and board games and like adventure hikes, whatever.
Tristan:And it's close to my mom's house in B.C.
Tristan:and it's free.
Tristan:Right.
Tristan:So I send the flyer to my child, whom I love.
Tristan:Hey, this is happening near Grammy's house.
Tristan:I would love to.
Tristan:I'm happy to drive you up to Canada, which is like an eight hour drive.
Tristan:I'll stay at Grammy's while you're there and then I'll pick you up and we'll come home.
Tristan:Right.
Tristan:I think as a parent I'm doing this, making this lovely offer of a gesture to my child and she responds, pass.
Heather:Oh yeah, okay.
Heather:But nothing else.
Heather:Just pass.
Tristan:Nothing else.
Tristan:Pass.
Tristan:And I was like, okay, comma, why question mark.
Tristan:You know, I'm just trying to understand, like, where did I miss the mark here?
Tristan:I.
Heather:Right, exactly.
Heather:Do you not like Canada?
Heather:Is it?
Heather:You don't like board games?
Heather:Like yes, exactly.
Heather:Let's narrow this down a little bit.
Tristan:Exactly.
Tristan:And then she writes back, no reason, just no thanks, I'm good.
Tristan:And I was like, okay.
Tristan:And then she writes back a screenshot of the flyer with the trans non binary gender, like gender creative part circled, you know, like edited and said.
Tristan:Also, I'm none of these things.
Heather:Oh, and I'm like, like an aside.
Heather:Like as a P.S.
Tristan:Yes.
Tristan:Number one, this doesn't sound fun and how dare you suggest it.
Tristan:Number two, by the way, I'm not.
Heather:Trans, btw, let you know as if.
Tristan:I am a total.
Tristan:Well, clearly.
Heather:I mean, how did you not know that?
Heather:I.
Heather:I just the long list of things that we don't know that, that we're supposed to just like know.
Tristan:Yes.
Tristan:It was as if I had asked her, what does Riz mean?
Heather:I actually asked that question because I couldn't like figure out where all the other letters were, which ones they were supposed to be.
Heather:But then when it was explained to.
Tristan:Me, I mean, duh, obviously it's charisma.
Heather:Charisma it's in the middle of the stupid word.
Heather:I mean, come on.
Tristan:Yeah.
Tristan:Anyway, so number one, I just want, like anyone who's listening to think, to understand that, like, even if you were queer or trans, if you're not, your kid is still going to talk to you like you're an idiot.
Heather:Yes.
Tristan:You are no closer to them in terms of them confiding in you or like actually bringing you into their thought process.
Tristan:They are still going to treat you as if you didn't know anything and were supposed to be psychic.
Tristan:So just so folks know, like, that's.
Tristan:That comes with the territory no matter what.
Heather:Yeah.
Tristan:And I don't know, I just wanted to make sure that people feel like it's okay if it is a face.
Heather:Right.
Tristan:And Sully's gender identity would not have met the criteria for transition.
Heather:Right.
Tristan:Like, that's the other thing.
Tristan:I really want to make sure that people are armed with those tools.
Tristan:Well, I hear about these kids where they think it one day and then they don't the next.
Tristan:That's right, totally.
Tristan:So instead of doubling down on the, like, that's not real or that doesn't happen.
Tristan:If you think about in those hard conversations, loosening up and leaning in.
Tristan:That's right.
Tristan:Some kids do identify as trans or non binary for a very short period of time.
Tristan:Those kids do not meet the criteria for puberty blockers or transition.
Tristan:Their gender identity is not insistent, consistent, persistent.
Tristan:And so those guidelines are in place to make sure that those kids are allowed to explore their gender and are protected from doing anything that might have a negative permanent impact on their development or growth.
Tristan:If six months later they're like, jk, I'm not any of those things with that level of attitude that my kid.
Heather:Circle X, I mean, kind of bravo.
Heather:I have to say I'm liking the SAS only because I have four of those and I do like that.
Heather:So a couple of things that I think are so fabulous that you are bringing up, talking about and.
Heather:Oh, this is so good.
Heather:So first of all, I love that you are talking about this in the sense of fluidity, which I think is a really hard thing for just humans to get their heads around.
Heather:Right.
Heather:That, and especially when you think about it at these ages, our kids are changing and growing and there some, you know, one day they like a sport and the next day they don't.
Heather:Right.
Heather:And they're experimenting and when they live in a home.
Heather:And I'm thinking, this is what.
Heather:Now tell me, correct me if I'm completely off base here.
Heather:But this is what I'm kind of hearing and thinking.
Heather:When they live in a home that is so loving and they know they are loved unconditionally, they know that they can show up exactly as who they are that day.
Heather:And it gives them the space to be able to say, this kind of feels like maybe who I am, and try it on.
Heather:And then six months down the road, they've developed more.
Heather:They've changed more, they've experienced more life.
Heather:They may still be in that place.
Heather:Awesome.
Heather:They may not be also awesome.
Tristan:Yeah.
Heather:And I think that's really, really hard for us to do because I think that as especially, like, you know, older, 35 plus, maybe, I don't even know.
Heather:Let's not put an H on it.
Heather:People who are a tad bit older like to put things in boxes.
Heather:Like, we really like to be like, okay, boy or girl.
Tristan:Right.
Heather:Gay or straight, like, there's like, you know, black or white, like, literally, like, there are just for everything.
Heather:And I think that this is one of the most beautiful things that we can do is just wipe all of those boxes away and not panic when there isn't one and just let them.
Tristan:Figure it out and get out of their way, you know, not try to get to.
Tristan:And then we get to model for grandparents.
Tristan:Right.
Tristan:Or we can model for whomever else that, like, yeah, you're totally right.
Tristan:It could be a phase.
Tristan:And for now, it doesn't hurt us or our kid to call them whatever name, whatever pronoun they want us to call them.
Tristan:That's it.
Heather:Right.
Heather:And it doesn't take away from the fact that, you know, those who.
Heather:It's not a phase four.
Heather:It doesn't say, well, they weren't created that way.
Heather:Right.
Heather:Because I think that's.
Heather:I'm just thinking in my head, like, all of, like, the counter arguments here that we hear.
Heather:And I think that's one where, you know, there's a lot of ahas, like, gotchas in this conversation, and I'd like to debunk as many as we can.
Heather:I want to circle back to kind of the beginning where you were talking about raising your kids and the things that do tend to come at, you know, that came at you while you were raising when they were younger and questions that people just ask.
Heather:And that's something that I really think is so important to debunk as well, that, you know, the identity and orientation of the parent.
Heather:What matters most, I mean, what I heard you say and what I, And I happen to agree with you a thousand percent, is Are these kids unconditionally loved?
Tristan:Yeah.
Heather:I'd love to hear more of your thought on that.
Tristan:I mean, I'll say that Leo, who's our six year old, like, he has so much more freedom to explore his interests and gender expression than our older kids did.
Tristan:Because by the time we get to the third kid and not being in the middle of a guardianship.
Heather:Sure.
Tristan:You know, and not having to worry that like, oh, a picture on Facebook of a kid not appropriately gendered, quote unquote, could be used in court to show that we aren't good parents and that we are going to somehow indoctrinate them into our way of thinking that anyone can express their gender however they want.
Tristan:God forbid.
Heather:Right.
Tristan:You know, I'm sure our older kids look at Leo and they're like, what the hell?
Tristan:You let him wear whatever he wants.
Tristan:You know, we're like, yeah, we do.
Tristan:You know, the circumstances are very different.
Tristan:And Leo will tell you he's six and so he has a very strong gender identity as boy.
Tristan:He also has a very strong gender expression which is feminine.
Tristan:He's like, very much.
Tristan:He will say, like, I'm a boy who likes girl things.
Tristan:Like he loves foofy dresses.
Tristan:He wants to wear them to school.
Tristan:And we let him because A, we're tired, we're 10 years older than we were when our kids were starting to want to express themselves differently.
Tristan:Yeah.
Tristan:And B, the stakes are just way, way, way, way lower.
Tristan:You know, we're not in the middle of having our, like, parenthood challenged legally.
Tristan:We don't have to, we don't have to prove ourselves to anyone with him.
Tristan:And it is, it's, it's very, it's very weird because you want, I sometimes find myself like in public spaces and he's got short hair now because he wants to have short hair and he's wearing a dress.
Tristan:And I, you know, there's that part of me that wants to say, but don't worry, like, I didn't make him this way.
Tristan:Like, we've just gotten out of his way.
Heather:Right.
Tristan:But the truth is we did make him this way, only in that we gave him the freedom to explore and express himself.
Tristan:And what we know is that no grown up human ever goes to their parents and says, how dare you have let me figure out my own path.
Tristan:You know, like grown ups don't go to their parents and say, I wish you hadn't given me the freedom to figure out who I was at a young age.
Tristan:Like, it just doesn't happen.
Tristan:You know, he'll never come to us and say, well, why did you put me in a dress?
Tristan:Because we'll say, you put yourself in those.
Heather:Right.
Heather:Exactly.
Heather:Exactly.
Tristan:The opposite is usually what happens.
Tristan:I really wish that you had let me express myself more when I was young.
Tristan:And we will not have that regret.
Tristan:We go to the store.
Tristan:He has his budget of 24.
Tristan:He can pick out whatever outfit he wants in Target.
Tristan:If it's a dress, fine.
Tristan:And if it's a fireman's costume, fine.
Tristan:You know, like, whatever, whatever.
Tristan:And we want him to be free from the pressures that we feel ourselves are under in terms of having to prove ourselves and demonstrate heteronormativity through our children.
Heather:And what a beautiful, beautiful thing that you're doing.
Heather:Because you are.
Heather:I really admire and respect how you both are kind of coming up against, you know, you're recognizing these things within you that are uncomfortable or that you're seeing out in the world that are uncomfortable.
Heather:And you're saying, okay, I see you, and I'm still.
Heather:I'm leaning in.
Heather:We're doing this, and I'm gonna just.
Heather:That is what great modeling.
Heather:I mean, not only for your kids, but for every single person listening, every single person who comes into contact with you.
Tristan:And we have extraordinary privilege because our family is legally protected.
Tristan:Right.
Tristan:Our older kids.
Tristan:There's an adoption.
Tristan:Adoption is forever.
Tristan:Leo is genetically both of our children.
Tristan:No one can come for him.
Heather:Right.
Tristan:Oregon.
Tristan:Where it's not against the law to let our kids cut their hair or grow their hair out or wear dresses where the kids can go to school and they're not going to be sent home, you know, because they're not, quote, unquote, appropriately gendered.
Tristan:You know, that's a lot of privilege.
Tristan:And we've got the grandparents whose love and support of our family is not conditional upon our kids being, again, like, what?
Tristan:Unquote appropriately gendered.
Tristan:You know, there's a lot of privilege built into that, and we really understand that as well.
Heather:Yeah.
Heather:Wow.
Tristan:Not everyone has those options.
Heather:No, they don't.
Heather:And.
Heather:But it's so good.
Heather:I mean, I think the more that you and people like you speak up and speak out and share, that's how these things change.
Heather:Right.
Heather:And.
Heather:And that privilege does extend to people in more and more places.
Heather:I mean, that's.
Heather:That's the hope, that's the.
Heather:The fight.
Heather:And again, like, that's why, circling back to.
Heather:These are human beings.
Heather:Like, we're not talking about, like, this.
Heather:These are human beings.
Tristan:Yeah.
Tristan:I mean, I heard a great interview recently with Marlon Wayans, who I guess is a trans kid, which I just found out about two weeks ago.
Tristan:And, you know, he said, of course, like, when you have kids, you, like, want them to be successful, you want them to have a life of meaning, you want them to be happy.
Tristan:But for him, as the parent of a trans youth, what he found is actually a greater wish for his children is that he wishes them to be free.
Heather:Oh, I love that.
Heather:Ah, yeah, right.
Tristan:And I think that's really what I'm thinking about is whether it's Leo being able to wear a dress if he wants, or Sully being able to change her name and change her pronouns and then change it back.
Tristan:Like, to me, that's liberation.
Tristan:That's what I want for my kids, is that they can be free to figure that out without me putting my rigid ideas and expectations and internalized transphobia and, you know, external pressures onto that, that they get to figure that out for themselves.
Tristan:Yeah.
Tristan:So I thought that was really powerful.
Tristan:And it hit me.
Heather:Oh, my goodness.
Heather:I mean, truly.
Heather:So beautiful.
Heather:Wow.
Heather:Yes.
Heather:And it's possible.
Heather:I mean, there.
Heather:There's a lot that needs to be that we all need to unlearn a lot.
Tristan:And he talks about privilege as well.
Tristan:You know, he's basically said, I'm rich enough.
Heather:Right.
Tristan:Like, I don't care what the right has to say.
Tristan:I don't care what, you know, anti trans people have to say.
Tristan:I'm rich enough.
Tristan:Cancel me.
Tristan:Go ahead, try.
Heather:Right, exactly.
Heather:Well, and that's it.
Heather:And again, I think recognizing the privilege is so important in that equation because it's saying, yeah, I get why I'm able to do this, and I'm going to keep doing it so that people who perhaps aren't in my position of privilege are then able to have what I have.
Heather:Right.
Heather:So that's, you know, and that happens in all kinds of.
Heather:Oh, in all ways.
Heather:Right.
Heather:So I do appreciate that so much.
Heather:And I.
Heather:And I think too, I'd love to just talk a little bit more because I'm just.
Heather:This was the.
Heather:When you reached out to me, this is what kind of struck me was this discussion of fluidity, because this is something that comes up a lot when I work with parents and conversations of just not understanding it.
Heather:And I've kind of run out of ways to explain it.
Heather:So I'm wondering if you could really give, like, your thoughts and your take on it and how we can best embrace it.
Tristan:Yeah, I mean, I don't think there's any magical way of explaining it.
Tristan:Sometimes what Comes up for me is if you.
Tristan:I feel like if we had tried to discourage Sully from changing her name and cutting her hair and going by different pronouns, I feel like that would have made things worse.
Tristan:I feel like the second you tell a kid, no, you cannot be that, that becomes their obsession.
Tristan:And then would Sully have been doing things in secret?
Tristan:Would she have become so convinced that she actually was trans just because there was no place to put that desire to explore things, you know, there's no place to.
Tristan:To put it and let it out and let it kind of run its course.
Tristan:That.
Tristan:Would it have curdled, you know?
Heather:Right.
Tristan:So sometimes I'm just like, look, lesser of two evils.
Tristan:Just let them do it and figure it out.
Heather:Right?
Tristan:Because if you don't, who knows what's going to happen, you know, I mean, I.
Tristan:It's so funny.
Tristan:It's the.
Tristan:The worst analogy, and it's imperfect at best.
Tristan:But when I was a kid, I was really interested in theater and performing, and my mom used to say that to me as like, okay, I'm going to let you do acting.
Tristan:Hopefully you get it out of your system.
Tristan:Right?
Tristan:Maybe you're just letting your kid get it out of their system, you know, and maybe for the short term, that's how you can think of it.
Tristan:But we know the second we tell a kid, no, you can't learn how to skateboard, that becomes the thing that.
Heather:They'Re obsessed with, right?
Tristan:Just let them learn how to skateboard, they're going to get hurt, realize it's not actually all that fun, and then stop doing it.
Tristan:Or maybe they become a pro skateboarder.
Tristan:Great.
Tristan:You know what I mean?
Tristan:Like, just let them figure it out.
Tristan:And to me, the stakes, they feel high.
Tristan:They're actually not that high.
Tristan:You're.
Tristan:You know, there's just nothing to suggest that your kid is going to be permanently injured by letting them cut their hair or grow their hair out or wear a bow to school.
Tristan:Or like, just like, at worst, the kids are going to make fun of them and they will learn about adapting, about code switching.
Tristan:And I do that with Leo.
Tristan:He's only six.
Tristan:And I say, sweetheart, I'm so excited for you to wear a dress to school today.
Tristan:Remember that not everyone thinks that boys should wear dresses.
Tristan:And you get to choose if you wear a dress.
Tristan:Some kids might say, well, are you a boy or a girl?
Tristan:And you'll have to answer that question.
Tristan:Question.
Tristan:Some kids might say, boys aren't supposed to do that.
Tristan:And you'll have to figure that out.
Tristan:Like, how do you want to have that conversation?
Tristan:Or you can choose not to wear a dress.
Tristan:And you don't have.
Tristan:Have to have any of those conversations at all.
Heather:You choose six.
Tristan:And he can totally handle that.
Tristan:He's like, I don't care what they say.
Tristan:Okay.
Tristan:Or he'll say, I don't feel like having those conversations today.
Tristan:I'll just wear the pants.
Tristan:All right.
Heather:Right.
Tristan:Like, what harm has befallen him?
Tristan:None.
Tristan:He's fine.
Heather:Exactly.
Heather:Well, and I mean, not only no harm, he's learned really valuable life skills.
Heather:Right.
Heather:I mean, I think learning that we have choices, that it alone is a huge thing, because I think a lot of young people don't realize that they have choices.
Heather:A lot of adults don't realize that they have choices.
Heather:Right.
Heather:And so I think that's such a gift to say, here are your choice.
Heather:You have choices, and you have the freedom to make these choices.
Heather:And here are some of the outcomes you may encounter when you make each of these choices.
Tristan:Yeah.
Tristan:And you get to choose.
Tristan:And sometimes you're going to say, I want to take off.
Tristan:Like my.
Tristan:I have a friend who lives in a much more conservative area than we do, and her.
Tristan:Our kids are friends.
Tristan:That's part of how we know each other.
Tristan:And her son loves to wear nail polish like his mom on the weekends, and then on Sunday night, he takes it off before he goes to school on Monday because he doesn't want the kids teasing him.
Tristan:Okay.
Tristan:That's his choice.
Tristan:But she lets him choose.
Tristan:It's not.
Tristan:Well, don't let them tell you what to do.
Tristan:No.
Tristan:You know, and it's not.
Tristan:You have to take it off so you don't get teased.
Tristan:No, you give them the information.
Tristan:You empower them to make a decision, and they live with the decision that they made.
Heather:Exactly.
Tristan:And then they can make a different decision tomorrow.
Heather:Correct.
Heather:Correct.
Heather:But holy cow, is that such a powerful.
Heather:Again, modeling of choices and decision making and critical thinking skills.
Heather:I mean, all of these things that we want our kids to have, all while, you know, also demonstrating that we love you for who you are.
Tristan:Like, yeah, you're always you.
Heather:You're always you.
Tristan:What's most important is you show up authentically as yourself, and that can have lots of different settings.
Heather:Correct?
Heather:Correct.
Heather:So I just want to say for everyone out there, because I.
Heather:And I know that I can actually include myself in this as well.
Heather:For those who have felt like they needed to hang on to the.
Heather:My child has come out as fill in the blank, and I can't let that go.
Heather:That's where.
Heather:That's what I'm holding on to.
Heather:That's what I'm learning about.
Heather:That's what I'm defending.
Heather:That's.
Heather:That's where I am.
Heather:I get that.
Heather:And I think this is such a powerful, powerful conversation to help support us and support so many through, you know, this just learning.
Heather:This is just another level of education of empowerment.
Heather:Right.
Heather:So thank you.
Heather:That is incredibly valuable as well as how to take this out into the world.
Heather:Right?
Heather:Like what.
Heather:How to handle.
Heather:Because I think one of the bigger fears, and I speak for myself, but I know a lot of other people feel this way or have felt this way is the.
Heather:What do you do when people come at you?
Heather:Right?
Heather:Like, how do you.
Heather:What do you say?
Tristan:Yeah.
Heather:So thank you.
Heather:I mean, this is so incredibly, incredibly just helpful and enlightening, and I really appreciate it.
Heather:I really appreciate you sharing and giving everyone permission.
Heather:Right?
Heather:All of us, you know, everyone permission to say, okay, this is.
Heather:Yes, this is okay.
Heather:We don't have to be so uptight about this.
Heather:We don't have to be so afraid of what if.
Heather:What if this is all wrong?
Tristan:Yeah, absolutely.
Tristan:The.
Tristan:When someone comes at you, the more you can agree with them, the sort of less rigid they become.
Tristan:You know, if someone's like, well, what if it's a face?
Tristan:Yeah, it might be.
Heather:Right.
Tristan:Well, what if he gets bullied at school?
Tristan:Yeah, he might get bullied at school for sure.
Tristan:That is something I'm really worried about too, you know, as.
Tristan:As much as you can position yourself.
Tristan:Not as, you know, we're, you know, pro and anti, but more, we both really love and care for this kid and want the best for them.
Tristan:Let's talk about how we can do that.
Tristan:I think it's going to turn out a little better.
Heather:Oh, okay.
Heather:So if you are feeling like that head exploding emoji, you are not alone.
Heather:I want you to take a few moments to sit in whatever you're feeling right now, to take a deep breath, to consider the phrase, all of life is on a continuum.
Heather:And it has been since the beginning of time.
Heather:This conversation with Tristan really helped me explore areas where I subconsciously and consciously still want to check a box and to really think about why that is.
Heather:The process of unlearning and learning is not linear.
Heather:It's like a wave of contractions and expansions.
Heather:And this was definitely a contraction for me initially, but as I sat with all of that discomfort, which, let's be honest, is so annoying, right?
Heather:But as I sat with that I began to face the old programming like another layer of that old programming that I thought I had gotten finished with, that I was done with, right, That I had worked through and healed from.
Heather:Now there was another layer of that and another layer of those fears and they just began to kind of pop up one by one and this time I could see them a little bit more clearly and it helped me loosen the idea, the vice grip that I had on on those specific ideas and allow expansion right like that next peeling away however you want to think about it, leveling up, opening up, expanding, whatever you know works best, however you imagine this to work in your brain even when we're unsure, allowing space for others thoughts and ideas can bring profound growth within us.
Heather:I invite you to take some time today and see what comes up for you, and I'd really love to hear about it.
Heather:Until next time.
Heather:Thanks so much for joining me today.
Heather:If you enjoyed today's episode, I would be so grateful.
Heather:For a rating or a review, click on the link in the show notes or go to my website chrysalismama.com to stay up to date on my latest resources as well as to learn how you can work with me.
Heather:Please share this podcast with anyone who needs to know that they are not alone.
Heather:And remember to just breathe.
Heather:Until next time.
